Welcome to Happily Even After Betrayal with Life Coach Jen. This podcast is where we talk about betrayal and divorce and what it actually looks like to live through those experiences while still being a parent, a grandparent, a partner, or just a human trying to keep it all together. If your heart feels shattered, your nervous system feels dysregulated, and your future feels unclear, you’re in the right place. Here we focus on understanding what happened so you can rebuild your identity, restore your confidence, and find peace so you can create your happily even after one episode at a time. Hey friends, welcome to today’s podcast. I’m so glad you’re here. And today I have a very special guest on that I’m really looking forward to talking to. And I think a lot of you will really enjoy listening to him. His name is Mark Chin, and he is a family law attorney in Mississippi. And I’m just gonna tell you a little bit about him. But first of all, you know, I love meeting people on the internet. And uh we met each other, we connected, and I just thought he would be such a great person to have on my podcast because so many of us, whether you’ve experienced betrayal, some of you are already divorced, or you’re wondering, do I want to get divorced? And so I thought it would be a great opportunity to ask some questions to a man who’s been a divorce attorney for 48 years. And he lives in Mississippi, but a lot of the questions, of course, you can just apply them to whatever state you’re in. But Mark, he has been in practice in Mississippi for 48 years, and he is a husband of Kathy for 48 years as well. So it’s like they started their journey. They got married and started this amazing practice, and they now have four daughters and five grandchildren. Mark has been a chair of the Mississippi Bar Family Law Section twice and served the ABA Family Law Section Council and has enjoyed long time service on the ABA family law section publication board. So, and he’s written lots of books. He’s just a really amazing person. I really loved getting to know him. So I’ll put all his other credentials in the show notes if you’re interested, or if you’re in Mississippi and you need to get a divorce, so you can find him. But thanks so much, Mark. It’s so good to have you here.
It’s a pleasure to be here. Is there anything else? Thank you for the nice introduction.
Is there anything else you want to say before we get started on our questions?
No, I’m ready.
You’re ready. All right.
Yes, you’re locked and loaded, right?
Yes.
So you are very experienced in divorce. Are there a few things that you see over and over again when someone comes to hire you that you’re like, okay, we need to just put this out in there. This is something important that people need to be aware of when hiring a divorce attorney.
Yes. Um, the first thing is that people wait too long to see an attorney. Um, I tell people if you’re worried that you need to see an attorney, you do. And I think a lot of people, particularly in the family law context, avoid contacting an attorney because I think they might feel it’s a breach of trust in the marriage relationship. And I understand that. And I think a lot of people also feel that if they see a divorce attorney, they’re somehow going to be catapulted involuntarily towards divorce. And what people should understand out there is that divorce attorneys are very well equipped to maybe help you avoid a divorce if that’s appropriate. And so the number one thing that I would like your listeners to know is that if they’re worried that they need to talk to a divorce attorney or any other kind of attorney for any other problem, they should. The second thing is that people who believe they have evidence of an affair, they reveal that to the other side. They will confront the other side, and that does a lot of damage. And I tell people never discuss your belief that your spouse is having an affair with your spouse for two reasons. Number one, if they are having an affair, you will reveal your suspicions and they will take protective actions and perhaps cover it up. And of course they’ll deny it. Number two, if they aren’t having an affair, that’ll create extreme resentment on their part. So I like people to hold off on confronting their spouse about an affair until they have talked to a divorce attorney and had a chance to fully evaluate, you know, whether or not this is truly substantive circumstantial evidence of an affair or whether it’s not. And then a divorce attorney can steer uh the person in the direction of taking action which will protect them and which will help them actually achieve evidence of an affair if that’s what they’re looking for. Uh so people often just jump and reveal their their suspicions to their spouse, and it it it never helps, in my opinion.
Yeah, but that’s so hard to do, Mark.
I know.
I I did all the wrong things, clearly, because the moment I discovered my husband’s having an affair, I went like crazy. And of course, then he held that against me, right?
I tell people that I tell people that I’m giving you the advice that’s right. I’m not telling you I could do it. Yes, I’m telling you uh what’s right. The other thing I see constantly is uh really almost shameful conduct by people in their relationships. When people come to my office, they almost inevitably bring uh a basket full of nasty emails and texts back and forth between each other, nasty recordings. And what I tell people is please try to avoid confrontation. Ask yourself whenever you’re talking to your spouse or anyone else for that matter, is what I’m about to say or do gonna take me closer to my goal or further away from it? And there’s almost no time when arguing with somebody uh in an angry way is gonna achieve any result. And so I I know it’s human nature uh to lose your temper. I know it’s human nature to uh feel like you can speak freely to your spouse, but the truth of the matter is that letting go of your emotional discipline and sending nasty texts and emails just ends up being a part of the the evidence that will be used against you in court and probably doesn’t help you one bit in your relationship, if not also destroying it.
Yeah, I I agree with that so much. It is hard, which is what you and I align on is that definitely having someone to process all your emotions with outside of your attorney, outside of your marriage, which I think is helpful because the court of law cares about the law. Now, in Mississippi, they do care if your spouse is having an affair. In most states, they don’t care, right? Which is sad. I I don’t know, we could probably have a whole discussion on that. But yeah, we’re we’re like becoming a a toddler throwing a fit, you know, because it is hard when our spouse is cheating on us and we find the evidence and we just want to like hurt them like they hurt us. But what you’re telling me, it sounds like we’re gonna get further ahead, and if we do end up getting divorced, it will go more in our favor or it will just be easier, right? Especially if we have kids.
Like I feel like kids bring a whole other dynamic to divorces. What’s your experience? Like, what’s the best way to handle when you have kids in this dynamic?
One of the things that happens a lot in my office is someone will say, Well, how do I tell the children? And I always respond with, they know. And they go, Really? I say, Oh, yes, they know. If you have a conversation with them, they’ll probably say something like, Mom, what has taken you so long? We’re sick of this. Um, a psychiatrist once told me that for children up to about age 14 in particular, you are their entire world. Children literally feel if you’re uh angry at them or disappointed with them, they literally have an innate feeling that they might die. And so they every bit of their antenna is up for what’s going on with their parents. They know their parents inside and out, probably much more than their parents would ever dream. And so the children know that there’s problems in a marriage long before it comes to a lawyer’s attention or you start talking about divorce. So the number one thing I would like people to know is that children are very harmed by marital discord. And and parents should be very careful not to have arguments in front of the children, not to talk badly about the other parent in front of the children. And uh I like to uh use a personal example. As I have grown up, as I’ve been a man and progressed through life, there have been times when I’ve felt challenged and I’ve wondered, is Mark Chin up to this? And one of the things that’s come into my brain is you’re okay, you’re Roland Chin’s son. And so uh I was raised believing that my father was a giant, that he was a man of great character, and he was, but the way I really got most of that information was from my mother. She’s the one who told me about my father because my father didn’t speak. He didn’t, you know, he was one of those quiet, quiet uh men from that era. And so I just use that as an example, uh, an example of how important it is for parents not to run down the other parent in front of children, not to argue with the other parent in front of children, because it really translates into the children as there’s something wrong with them. Which leads me to the next thing that people don’t realize is that I understand from psychologists and psychiatrists and counselors that the first reaction of children when they hear their parents are having a divorce is that it’s their fault. That seems unbelievable to us. How could they possibly think it’s their fault? But that’s what they think. They think they’re responsible. And so it’s very important for people to assure their children when they’re going through a divorce to find a way to assure them this has nothing to do with them, it’s not their fault, and that their world will not be shattered by what’s about to happen.
Yeah, and that leads me to, I think, finances, because I especially uh for me in my situation, I was a stay-at-home mom, right? Like so my livelihood depended on my spouse providing for me, which is why probably I stayed for so long. And the fear in that. But of course, everyone doesn’t think a divorce, the finances are fair. But what are some tips, especially if a woman is getting divorced, right? And she’s a stay-at-home mom, or what are some ideas for men to get a hold of that they’re like she’s taking everything from me, right? Like there’s just always this discrepancy, like with finances. What are some mistakes? What are some ways to make it feel more equitable? I don’t know. How do you how do you deal with that when the finances are, you know, that’s most people’s fear? It’s like the money. It comes down to money, which is so sad in a marriage.
Well, there is a truth in in most marriages, and that is this. How can you take what once required two people to live in one household and then divide them into two households and still have enough?
Yeah.
So that is a truth, and that is a problem, and that is a reality of divorce. Now, one of the things that that you’ll hear uh people talk about in regard to divorce, uh, you know, when my clients come in, their friends are telling them, telling my clients, take him for all you can, get everything you can, clean him out, um, bleed him dry. And and so people have that mentality when they approach divorce. And and on the other side, people might have the mentality is I’m not gonna let her take me for everything I have, or let him take me for everything I have. But the truth of the matter is that the court doesn’t want anything to do with that mentality. Uh, the courts that handle divorce cases, their job is not to declare a winner. Their job is not to say someone gets all the money and someone else loses. Their job is to figure out a way to try and make each party go on their way okay based on the facts that there are there. So the court’s job in what we say in the law is to do equity. The court’s job is to try and work it all out so everybody’s as okay as they can be. So people enter with a mentality of I want to win, but the truth of the matter is that’s that’s really never an issue with the court, almost never an issue with the court.
Yeah, and really it’s not a win. Like what what’s a win? It’s already a deficient. You’re gonna lose c you know, 50-50 custody. And I don’t know, do you find that to be a fight? Like, do you feel like people fight over the kids more than the money, or is it both?
Well, it’s both. But I think that there is a mentality of fighting over the children, a mentality that starts with labels. Um and I think a lot of states have struggled with that and tried to come up with ways of describing parenting that doesn’t involve one person wins and one person loses. So right now in Mississippi, we use words which kind of create a win-loss situation. So there’s custody and then there’s visitation. So one parent has custody, and the other parent just has this relegated role of visitation. I think that that is the wrong way to look at the situation. What really should be the focus is what I like to call a parenting plan. And so what is the parenting plan? Not who has custody, but where do the children need to be when and why? And so labels as to who gets custody or who has what, that’s that’s not helpful to the situation of the children. The question is, how do we customize this situation to really take into consideration the lifestyles, the work demands of the parents and the and the needs of the children? Uh, how do we customize it to create what I like to call a parenting plan instead of a custody situation? And it calls for people, I think, to step outside of their anger and their resentment and step outside of fixed notions and use their imagination. Come up with ways to uh give the other parent uh good time with the children uh while still protecting what you think is the best interest of the children.
Yeah, I I love that so much.
A typical visitation arrangement might be Friday to Sunday for, let’s just say for the dad. So a typical visitation arrangement might be Friday to Sunday. What I find is that there has been a transition in generations. Uh my father’s generation played a role of very little involvement with the children. And there were a lot of stay-at-home moms. And so my father, God love him, he was not real involved. As a matter of fact, I can only remember him coming to one of my baseball games. Then my generation, I think we became pretty involved with the children from a, let’s say, a recreational standpoint. Uh, my children referred to me as the fun one because, you know, I was always the one taking them to their games. I was the one taking them to the pool in the afternoon. I was the one uh that took them out on a Saturday afternoon or a Tuesday evening for some ice cream. I was the one that did those things. And so I was pretty involved. But now what I’m finding with the young men today, let’s say in the uh 25 to 45 range, is they are primary caregivers. Uh my sons-in-law are primary caregivers. They’re involved in the care in a way that is what I like to call primary, and and not just the fun parts. Uh, I’m glad for the role I played, um, but my wife shouldered the burden. She was the she was the mom.
Yeah.
Even though she worked too. Uh, but today I’m seeing that a lot of men are getting involved. And so you’re seeing men seek more time with the children, if not what might be called joint custody or equal time. As a matter of fact, Mississippi just passed a law that went into effect July 1 saying that there shall be a presumption of joint custody. Now, I have a problem with that for many reasons, but what I was getting towards is that studies show that children do better in school if men are involved, if the father’s involved in school. And so I I push away from the traditional every other weekend visitation and actually coach my clients, say it’s the female that has primary custody. I coach I coaches say, you know, what about Thursday after school to Monday to the start of school? And, you know, there’s some pushback, you know, sometimes they say, oh, Friday’s a test day, and I’ll respond with, well, why not make him responsible for that? Well, he won’t do it. And well, maybe he needs to learn to do it. It maybe be better for the children that he learned to do it. Another thing about the Thursday afternoon to Monday morning thing is the parents don’t have to meet. They can, you know, you you you take away that meeting, and the meeting may be nasty or not, but at least you take away the timing of the thing, you know, is the person on time, you know, is one person waiting for the other person? And so uh I like to see an after school to start a school visitations uh or parenting situation that gets the father involved in school and uh gets him a little more time.
Yeah, I love that. I I think the nitpicking, right? Like I I have seen that with clients that are divorced and in my own self. It’s like we want to focus on all the things that our former spouses are not doing, and we make a list, right? And the person that punishes mostly is us, right? It punishes us, and we’re like, why are we doing this? But for whatever reason, it’s I think ruled by fear or lack of control or the fear like, well, they’re not gonna prepare for the test. But I I do believe you’re right about this younger generation that the dads are a lot more involved. I have a brother who’s 12 years younger than me, and he is so involved with his kids. And I’m like, wow, right? Like I was, I was still in the generation I I did all of it before, you know, my husband went to work and I did the, you know, took everything, the lunches and stuff. I mean, he did do some stuff. He did do some stuff. But yeah, I do, I do think uh if we can get out of just, you know, and of course everyone wants to call everyone a narcissist and all these negative labels, and it just it doesn’t make divorce, it makes it almost worse. It’s like we’re taking a negative, something that could be negative. Although I do believe divorce can be a good thing, right? If you’re married to the wrong person, it could ultimately be the best choice for you. Like, thank goodness. I mean, back in the day you couldn’t get divorced, right?
Right.
A woman especially could not get divorced. People didn’t get divorced. I don’t know when that changed, but you probably do. I don’t know what year that was.
Well, I think the evolution of no fault divorce, which you correctly alluded to earlier, that that uh forty-nine states have no fault divorce. Uh Mississippi is holding on to requiring that there either be fault, adultery, cruelty, drunkenness, use of drugs, desertion, or that there be an agreement to divorce. I get the reason behind that. I get that someone shouldn’t just be able to uh throw a marriage and everything that you’ve put together away because they want to. I get that. But on the other hand, what it really results in is people being trapped in relationships and very unhealthy situations which which lead to um emotional blackmail and which lead to damaging situations for the children. So I think the evolution of divorce law towards no fault is a positive development, and I would like to see it uh take place in Mississippi. I think you’re right uh about uh perhaps it can be a good thing. No one wants to divorce. Uh I have many clients come into my office and they say, I don’t want a divorce. And I say, all right, hold on, do you really not want a divorce or you just wish you weren’t? And they go, Yeah, I just wish I weren’t. I said, you know you probably need to, right? And they they go, yeah. And I’m not I’m not pushing divorce on people, but the the truth of the matter is they they just wish they weren’t. And nobody wants to be in that situation. But I really believe one of the major keys to life is resilience. And I think what you’re doing is is so important in in lives. I’ve been thinking about the fact that you focused on betrayal in your in your life’s work. And I’ve been thinking about the fact that probably everyone in life is betrayed. It is, in fact, a fact of life that you’re going to be betrayed. Heck, we betray ourselves.
All the time.
And so we have to we have to accept betrayal as in in varying levels as a fact of life. Do we accept it as something that we’re going to uh forgive and move on in the marriage? That’s a totally different question, and perhaps, you know, one for a different day. But, you know, betrayal is a fact of life, and learning how to deal with it is really important. And there are going to be, we know bad things are coming our way in life. The key is how do we respond? How do how do we take what’s happening to us and and turn it into something that can can move our life forward in a positive way? I like to call it turning adversity into success. I like to call it riding the wave. And I use the metaphor of uh Jim Cantori, you know, the weather channel, uh, during a hurricane.
Oh, yes.
You’ll be at the scene of the hurricane and there’s rain and wind, and he says, pan back a second, and he’ll pan, they’ll pan back and show surfers out on the waves at the beginning of a hurricane. He said, Look at those people. And I like to use that as a metaphor for how we should approach the difficulties of life. When a hurricane sends you a giant wave, write it.
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
What I like to tell people also is in a divorce, though it may be unfortunate, as you mentioned, they may not be the right person. So many times I have people uh come to me that they’re in a new relationship after the divorce, and they are so grateful for where they are, despite how terrible it was to get there. And we use the phrase, God bless the broken road. God bless the broken road that led me straight to you, uh country music song. And it’s so true. Life, life sends us on detours. And the question is, you know, how do we deal with it? Do we deal with it in a constructive way or do we allow it to destroy us?
Yeah.
I say we deal with it in a constructive way.
Yeah, I agree with you so much. It’s hard for people though, right? Because they just get so fixated on all the nuances and what he said and did and all that.
But have you had experience? Like, can you tell when a client comes in and you’re like, okay, this divorce is gonna go well? Their attitude, like, is there any I don’t know. I I literally got divorced in two hours. So I I’m like an anomaly. I know I am. I don’t know how that happened. I just think my former husband and I sat next to each other, divided all the assets with an attorney present. He wrote up the papers. And, you know, in Utah, it’s 30 days. So we took us 30 days to get divorced. I don’t know if that’s because of all the work I’d done on myself before that. He was very eager to get out of the marriage, lots of things, but I don’t know what what’s something helpful like when people come to you, if if they could just know one thing that they could really work on that would help people get through it. I mean, clearly ride the wave, but anything.
Yeah, I I think that um as as bad as this sounds, I think people should realize the situation they’re in and turn towards making business decisions.
Yes, yes.
If you can just find a way to put the emotions to the side and make business decisions, you’ll be much better off.
Yes.
Do we know what direction things are gonna head? Uh yeah, I have instincts, uh, and I will uh I’ll have an idea maybe going in, but things can change at the blink of an eye. People are famous for coming into my office and saying, everything’s agreed to, this is gonna be an easy split, and I go, okay, uh, we’ll see. And then it turns out that there is no easy split and that things break down. And another thing that can happen is people might give the impression that they’re willing to do something a certain way, but when they see it in writing, their attitude completely changes.
Yeah.
So you you really just don’t know which direction uh something like this is gonna go. But you said you did the work. And so the reason why you’re sitting where you are today as successful as you are, and the reason why you got the the divorce in two hours, as you said, is because of the work you did. Uh did your husband’s desire to get out uh contribute to that? Sure. Um in any negotiation, uh lawyers are always looking for what we call leverage. What will make the other person move? Uh you might think they’re immovable, but there might be something that’ll make them move. Uh so what is the lever? Uh so if somebody wants to get something over with, uh, that can be used to your advantage to to negotiate. Um if someone is anxious to move on with their new uh love life, yes, you can use that uh as as leverage to make things move a little faster. So lawyers are looking for that and uh should be expert in that to help people uh move faster towards their goals.
Yeah, I I agree. So for someone that’s thinking about getting divorced, it sounds like talk to a divorce attorney. Just because you talk to a divorce attorney doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting divorced. But I always say knowledge is power, getting the information. Because it most people on the regular have no idea what a divorce looks like. I mean, if you’ve never done it, you wouldn’t have any idea. Or you’ve just heard horror stories. I have a friend that is now eight years into trying to get the financial part of her divorce taken care of. They bifurcated. I don’t know if they do that in Mississippi, but they do that here. It’s like you’re divorced, but then you have to argue about the money. And I’m like, now it’s been eight years, and of course he doesn’t want to give her the money. And so that to me, I’m like, that probably should have not been bifurcated if we would have known that, right? But you didn’t know that. She didn’t know that eight years ago. And so yeah, so talking to someone, do you recommend talking to a few attorneys, or what are your thoughts? We know you’re the best, Mark, but not everyone lives in Mississippi.
Um I don’t know about that. I think you it used to be that people talked to a trusted friend, accountant, or neighbor and asked who they used. And so there would be a very personal aspect to referrals, and I think that potentially would be more trustworthy than today. Today, the way people find anything, including a lawyer, is to pick up their phone and punch in best divorce lawyer in Mississippi. And that’s what that’s the way they find things. And so, you know, is going on the internet and going to an attorney based on what you see on the internet, should you just rely on that? Uh I I don’t know. I I think there can be some good signals that you can get off the internet, such as experience, et cetera. I think what people can rely on is how the office of the attorney responds when you call. Is there an immediate response? I can’t tell you the number of people that I run into that say, I called that lawyer and they won’t call me back. And so I don’t know why lawyers will allow new business to sit there unreturned, but they do. And so I think you can tell a lot from how the law firm responds to your initial call. If they respond well and then you meet with the lawyer and you feel good about it, I really don’t know that there’s any need to go looking to two or three others of wasting your time doing that. Yeah. So I would say, you know, that’s a good question.
Yeah.
And I think the first thing you should ask yourself is do I feel good about the way they’re responding to my call? And number two, once you meet, do I feel good about our meeting and do I feel comfortable? I believe that 90% of a lawyer’s job is to take the problem off of someone else’s shoulders and put it on theirs. I want my clients to, when I walk them to the door of my office to look at me and say, wow, I feel much better. I feel like a burden has been lifted off of my shoulders. And I’ll look at them and say, That’s my job. I take on your burden. And so if you walk out of the lawyer’s office with that feeling, you don’t need to talk to somebody else.
Yeah, I agree. That’s so good. Okay, I’m gonna ask
one last question. AI. Do you have people? Well, I asked chat GPT what I should do. What are your thoughts about that? Because people all the time, they’re like, oh, I don’t need a coach or I don’t need help because I’m using Chat GPT as my therapist. And I’m guessing people are also using it as their attorney. What are your thoughts on AI?
I just got uh a very sophisticated inquiry about a post-trial motion from a client, and I was real tempted to reply, nice AI email, but I didn’t. And so, yes, lawyers are being challenged uh in a way that they maybe have never been challenged before. People are people are accessing Chat GPT, people are accessing Claude, they’re accessing some of these other AI agents and asking them questions, and they are getting good answers. And so there’s a challenge for lawyers out there to be ready to to be on their game and to respond to those uh usually pretty sophisticated uh emails that might come in that are usually spot on uh when they use uh an appropriate uh AI agent.
Yeah.
But that doesn’t mean that they can they can take on AI can be good, but it doesn’t take on my 48 years of uh experience and instinct.
No, and you can’t bring on the personal care for somebody. Yeah, you that’s what I think. And you can’t bring an AI something into the judge and say, you know, type it in like right. I just I I think it is helpful for information, but not for what you’re looking for, the burden taken off, the the connection, the relation, your experience is so valuable. I I agree with that. I I think people are using it, they’re using it more as a crutch instead of a helper. I d I don’t know. So I love love hearing that. I totally agree. And there might be something yeah, the AI could, you know, type up emotion. I don’t know what that is really, but you doing it would be so much better. And maybe I don’t know.
I think you’ve raised a very important point, is that AI can maybe even think better than I do, and it can access more information than I do instantly, but it can’t care.
Yes, yeah.
It can’t care. And it it can’t evaluate the personalities of the people on the other side or the lawyer or the judge. There’s a famous saying in the law, know your judge. Um the law is not some black and white thing. Think about it, the Supreme Court of the United States, with nine judges who are supposed to be at the very pinnacle of legal thinking, often often render results with five-four decisions. So, what is the truth in the law if the Supreme Court itself, with all those great minds, disagrees on a 5-4, 6-3 basis almost routinely? So know your judge, and AI is not gonna know the judge. Now, I will say this there can be potentially databases for what a judge’s particular decisions are, and potentially you could have AI access that database and give you an impression of which way a judge might go on a case, and that might be on the horizon. But right now, it’s pretty hard to get a database of judges’ decisions, but that’s on the horizon potentially.
For sure. But there just is nothing like human interaction, I don’t think. Like having a connection. I I think that is important. Especially one of the biggest, hardest decisions of your life is getting divorced. And do you want to rely on a computer or an actual person?
Well, I think it should be a teamwork thing.
Yeah, for sure.
It’s important for clients to be educated. And we go to great lengths on our firm to educate people every step of the way, not only on what has happened, but we try to educate them on what’s going to happen. I call it answering questions before they’re asked. I think our job as experts is to let people know what’s coming and to answer whatever they might fear, to answer it before they bring it up. And so that’s my role. But if a client is really well educated, they can help me better as a lawyer. And so you can read books or you can use AI. Uh it doesn’t matter. The the important thing is are you getting educated? And it’s okay, I think, for clients to use AI to challenge their lawyer. And the lawyer, you know, lawyers have to step up and be ready for that.
Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that you’re so open to the new technology of the world. You’re I’m all over the new technology. You’re cutting edge, Mark. I love it. I love it. Okay. All right. Well, any last words that you want to say? I’ve loved having this conversation with you. And we could for sure talk for hours, but is there anything else you want to say?
Yes.
Um, I just got done working on a concept called collaborative law. And collaborative law is a mechanism to try and get people through the divorce process in a collaborative fashion as opposed to an adversary fashion. I think it’s a great idea for lawyers and clients to sign a commitment that they’re going to work on positive resolution instead of using attack and adversarial methods and the leverage that I described, that people will just look for a way to solve problems. Uh simple things like, okay, we disagree on the value of a house. Well, let’s get a joint appraiser instead of each party hiring an appraiser and then having two different results with no way to resolve it. Working cooperatively to try and answer questions. And I think if if you know this is going on well in states like Texas and Florida, I have friends in those places where the entire law firms, you know, nine lawyers where all they do is collaborative divorce. And the the people in those places have said, we don’t want a fight. We want lawyers to find a way to sit down and work it out together. Abraham Lincoln famously said, lawyers should be peacemakers. It says in the Bible, settle with your neighbor on the way to court, lest you be thrown in jail, something like that. And so I think the the greatest thing that we can do as professionals is to find ways to steer people towards a process of collaboratively resolving this because a couple of things. Number one, divorce is a fact of life.
Yes.
It happens to a majority of the population, in my opinion. I think the statistics are probably higher than 50%. Number two, as we talked about earlier, betrayal is a fact of life. There’s probably an element of betrayal in every relationship. And so learning as you are expertly doing, learning how to deal with betrayal, and learning, as you’ve written recently, about what boundary you’re going to set, but also learning how to set a boundary and move on positively as opposed to setting a boundary and moving on negatively. Those are thoughts that I hope your audience will take away from today.
Yeah, I love that. And really, it’s so true. If we could collaborate, it would be so much better for our kids, for our just everyone, our in-laws, our families. I think for society, if we didn’t have this adversarial fight, I think it’s changing the idea of what divorce could look like, the possibility. So I I like collaboration. I think somehow my former husband and I, I think we were good collaborators. We we did it unbeknownst. I didn’t call it that, but I guess that’s what we did was collaborate.
Sounds like it.
Yeah. Well, Mark, thanks so much for being here. I just enjoyed our conversation and I enjoy knowing you and have a beautiful day. So thanks everyone for listening. If you like this podcast, please share it with your family and friends, and I will talk to you next week. Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Happily Even After Betrayal. If you want to understand what stage of betrayal you’re in, head to my website at lifecoachgen.com. That’s Jen with one N and take the free quiz. It’s a simple step you can take today toward creating your own happily even after.
