Welcome to Happily Even After Betrayal with Life Coach Jen. This podcast is where we talk about betrayal and divorce and what it actually looks like to live through those experiences while still being a parent, a grandparent, a partner, or just a human trying to keep it all together. If your heart feels shattered, your nervous system feels dysregulated, and your future feels unclear, you’re in the right place. Here we focus on understanding what happened so you can rebuild your identity, restore your confidence, and find peace so you can create your happily even after one episode at a time. Hey friends, welcome to today’s podcast. Today I’m so excited to have a guest on my show. His name is Bubba Page, and I met Bubba a few years ago. And we had the opportunity to meet and we’ve kind of followed each other. And I think I probably followed him before I actually knew him because he and his former wife were and are Utah influencers. And so they shared lots of fun things that, of course, I was interested in. And when I met Bubba, um, you know, he was he’s a great guy. It was, he was considering, you know, in its process of getting divorced. And now he is divorced. And the one thing I love about him is that he shares his divorce experience, which I think a lot of men do not do, not because they don’t want to. And he has a platform, but it just feels, I don’t know, more personal. Women are much easier sharing their divorce experience. And I have a lot of male clients that are really struggling wanting to connect with other men or just know like they’re not alone. And so I thought I would have him on my podcast. So I’m really grateful. Thanks so much for being here today, Beba.
You know what? There’s a lot to talk about. Yes. So I’m excited to be here. This is great.
Yeah. So is there anything before we get started that you want us to know about you?
Meet Bubba And Fatherhood Movement
So I’m a dad of eight kids. So six years old, all the way to 16, four boys, four girls. And that is the priority, right? Yeah. I have my God, my kids, the family. That’s just totally in order of my priorities. And one of the fun things that I got to do is start something called fatherhoodmovement.com. Because I felt like, like you mentioned, guys just don’t talk about this.
Yeah.
And uh most of the time, my my upbringing, I just shoved feelings down and didn’t realize that I needed to learn how to process, learn how to heal, um, figure out my attachment style, you know, wonder about childhood wounds. I mean, these are elements that I was never taught I didn’t know about until I had to go through one of the hardest things ever in my life, which is a divorce. So, first thing, like my mission is not necessarily to encourage divorce. Like to me, my mission is more about healing.
Yes.
And so if people can’t do that, that’s my mission too. There you go. Yeah. Because when people heal, both men and women can heal, they can save their relationships if possible. Um, and if that’s the right thing for you. Um, marriages, I think, can be repaired in a healthy way. And whether you’re in a marriage or not, right now, healing is going to be a priority no matter what. So I think it just applies to everybody. And the fatherhood movement is one of those passion projects I’m working on.
Yeah. Well, I I love that so much because it is so true. And I’m all about healing as well, right? Like in my story, I experienced betrayal and I really wanted to save my marriage. But then I realized, oh, I to reconcile, you have to have two people to reconcile. Absolutely. And so, but my healing journey, as I healed, I was like, oh, okay, I need to get divorced. And it’s hard. I was married for 26 years. How how many years were you married?
17. Yeah, it’s it’s hard. And you have eight kids. I was thinking of the TV show eight is enough. Did you you probably that was probably before your time? Yes.
Yeah. So I mean and I know that there’s different circumstances, and everyone has to make their own choice, and there’s no judgment on my part. That’s one thing I’ve learned. Yes. Honestly, pre-divorce, uh, I hate to say this, but I did have a little bit of a lens of judgment on people who got divorced because I didn’t understand it at all. And so when I see that happen, I would probably have some kind of judgment. And I’m sad that I had that. God gave me a new lens to look from. And so now I can see when divorces occur, the judgment is just not a thing anymore because no one knows what’s really going on. No one has an idea what’s behind the scenes, especially if it’s a public type of a divorce. Then they only can see what is currently online.
Yes.
And that is not necessarily the full story. So I I just I have so much more compassion, so much more empathy for those who are, you know, struggling in their relationship, which I think every relationship has to have some hard things and and good things. But uh I do believe in God’s plan. Um, our marriage partner is here to refine us, yes, which means they may challenge us. Yes, and may poke and prod just a little bit because they know us better than anybody. And it just feels like uh God leverages or uses our our partner, our spouse to push us to become the best version of ourselves. Um, and sometimes we don’t recognize that.
Yes, absolutely. And sometimes it is true, like divorce is the best option in our marriage because I’m a huge marriage proponent too. I believe you can reconcile, but then again, it it takes two people. And just sometimes it’s okay
Separation Rules And Dating Too Soon
for your marriage to end. And so, how how long have you been divorced?
So two and a half years of separation uh since separation, a year and a half since the divorce.
So it’s pretty recent. Yeah, very recent.
I would say I know when I talk to different people, uh, they’ll be like, oh, that’s plenty of time. And others are like, Well, I it’s been six years, ten years, yeah, 15 years. Um, for me, I still feel like I uh the healing process is a forever journey. I don’t see it as it’s a lifelong process, but I’m not gonna use that as an excuse. I do believe part of the healing happens in a new relationship as well. Um I think for the first year, I made a commitment to myself no serious dating for the first year post-official divorce. So during separation, I didn’t date at all. I even still had my ring on. For me, I don’t know, I recommend it. I know not everybody believes that.
Yeah, but I if you’re not divorced, you’re still married. That’s my opinion. So yeah, that’s I’m a hard line. That’s a hard line. That’s a hard line for me.
I that’s the way I took it. Um, and it was actually great for me because there wasn’t even a temptation to start dating. I just focused on my healing and my kids.
Yeah.
And that first year was a beautiful time. It was one of the hardest years ever. But if I would have incorporated dating into that component for me, it would have been horrible. But I also think some people have maybe planned emotionally more for a divorce than than another. Yeah. Especially, and so sometimes uh it takes longer for one person than the other to get there. So, anyway, I didn’t date until the divorce was official, official. And then when I did start dating, um, you know, I’ll I’ll admit I probably jumped in a little too fast. And it wasn’t that I was seeking um a deep relationship. Yeah, and I was very transparent when I when we talk about dating, uh, or when I would go out with somebody that I was fresh, yeah, new, and that, but I did want to understand what the world looked like. Uh what your options were. Well, yeah, and just who was I in a dating scenario? It had been almost 20 years.
Yeah.
So I knew and I was open and transparent. Everyone that I went out with was fine with that. But uh after a third or fourth date, they were not okay with me still being not ready.
Yeah.
And so that was hard. So I’ve slowed way down, um, way down, way down. Because it’s uh one, I still feel like there’s parts and pieces of me that need to progress before you know you dive into an in-depth relationship. I don’t know, that’s just me. No, I think it’s really willing to take my time and be patient. It’ll come.
Yes, it will cme. But for sure, you have to pay attention. You have to listen to your internal, what your internal gut intuition is saying, because so many people jump into second marriages and it happens differently, but some sort of you know, the same flavor, there’s issues then, and problem with you know, cohabitating the two families and blended families, that’s a whole other layer. And so then you’re back at divorce number two.
Yeah.
And no one wants that. If you’ve been divorced, you want you want one divorce, and sometimes it does happen and it’s fine. But so when you were considering getting divorced, what ultimately was the thing that made you say, okay, I can do this? Like, what was the resistance for the divorce?
When Divorce Becomes Real
Like, were you resistant at all? Thinking, because for me, I know in my own life, I was like, No, you are married forever. Like, you don’t get divorced, you figure it out. But was there anything like that?
Or what was the I think culturally, um, you know, I I was raised in a home with a a couple that was married. My parents have stayed married their uh 50-year plus year marriage. So no, it was never even a concept.
Yeah.
Um, getting divorced was never an option. And so uh that that was a mentality I went into marriage with. And so I just always figured we would we would work it out, we’d figure things out. And so, yeah, I think the idea that uh divorce became a reality uh was a for sure a shock and didn’t believe um I didn’t realize that that was my future. I mean nobody does. Yeah, of course. And and so I think some of the hardest pieces are knowing or believing what you think your future looks like and having a vision for that, having plans, having goals, having all of the structure, but then that all changes. And uh looking into the future and knowing that my life is completely different than what I thought it was, uh it also made me look inward a lot
Bitterness, Faith, And Responsibility
more. Here’s one thing that I want to help if anybody’s going through struggles or they’re going through a divorce, or if you’ve been divorced, bitterness is your enemy. And so uh look, I don’t care what happened, who did what to me uh yes, that matters, and I want to have compassion and empathy for you, but it’s your job to heal. Like we can’t change anyone else, and so it’s up to us no matter whatever happened. And our healing journey is our own, and we have to go into it. I believe when you lean on God through that healing journey, you can uh you can handle more when you have someone like the Almighty, you know, God who is the master healer. So for me, I needed both my understanding of of Jesus Christ and his atonement that could that could clean, cleanse,
Attachment Styles And Relationship Patterns
heal me, as well as some of the psychological components like understanding attachment styles.
Yeah.
And when I read the book attached, which I highly recommend, yeah, I realized that I was more anxious than uh than secure, let’s say. So if somebody hasn’t read the book, there’s more detail than this, but this is a very yeah, there’s uh uh anxiously attached individuals, avoidantly attached, and then secure is the goal. Yes, and again, there’s a lot more detail to this. I’m very, very much summarizing. So when you have anxious people and avoidant people, that’s a lot of times how marriage relationships look. One is anxious, one is avoidant. And that’s very, very common. So I didn’t realize though that it’s insecurities that we all have, all of us, every human has them that put us in those state of minds. So when you have more of an anxious attachment, you might have a fear of abandonment. And so you fear that that person may leave. So you’re willing to maybe uh overlook your own needs and self-sacrifice for the other person. And when you do that, sometimes you lose a part of yourself. And the more you lose a part of yourself, the more inauthentic you become. And I know for me, I tried to to become what I thought she wanted.
Yes.
Instead of just becoming more of me and a better version of me, I became something that I thought.
Yeah.
And when you’re avoidant, a lot of times you’re protecting yourself. And so you’re protecting yourself because you’ve been hurt in the past, or you had a, you know, an upbringing where maybe you didn’t have close male relationships, or maybe father, your father wasn’t as emotionally available for you. And so sometimes those avoidant relationships, it’s funny because they attract the anxious. And that’s this thing, this dynamic where the anxious and avoidant attract each other. But unless they heal and become more secure in themselves, it’s going to cause problems. And so if those are people who are dating, this is important for you to know. If you’re married, it’s important for you to know. If you’re divorced, it’s important for you to know. Like, yeah, the so attachments was one of those things that I I really wish I would have known well beyond years and years ago. I’m trying to teach my children even what these insecurities may look like. Because what they learn now as a child will impact their adult romantic relationships.
Absolutely.
So I just those are pieces that I really want to make sure folks are focused on. And
Childhood Wounds And Healing Tools
then the childhood wounding part. And I know people might think it’s woo-woo, you know, why is everybody talking about their childhood? I truly believe there are elements of our childhood that um impact our adult life. And if our adult life has now been um and our relationships are being impacted, based on how we were raised, it can create major struggles in a relationship. And until we heal those parts of ourselves, we’re going to create strain and friction in the relationship. So those are some of the most important pieces that I found that I felt is I had to start healing those pieces. And that has helped co-parenting to be better. That’s helped me be more open and uh vulnerable with my children. It’s helped me love my parents even more. Um, because uh all parents are gonna do some things that don’t and they’re doing the best they could at the time with what they have.
They didn’t back in the 70s, 80s, 90s, like we didn’t know any of this.
Yeah. Oh, nobody knew any of this.
The great defender
No one knew any of this, which is one of the beautiful things about you knowing it because you’re the change maker.
Try.
I always like that because it’s like you can figure out, okay, this is what I wish I would have known. I’m gonna help my kids know it so that when they start dating and decide who they want to marry, they’re gonna recognize the red flags or things. Let’s have a deeper discussion on this, right? And of course, at 20 in their 20s, people aren’t so self-aware, but at least awareness is the first step to change. And so once you can become aware of these things, you can be like, oh, I see me there. But most people want to look at their spouse and point fingers, right?
Because it’s so easy to point, it’s pointing and blaming, but you got more fingers pointing back at you. Yeah, that’s the funny thing. This blame thing. Um, I’ve I’ve been able to work with quite a few folks as their coach. I’m not a therapist. Yeah. And and when we talk, usually they come to me for business help, but within two or three calls, it’s always life help. Always.
It was hilarious.
I didn’t realize that as I’ve I’m an entrepreneur, that’s my career. I’m now and I get to invest in other companies now. And so when they came, it was business. But as we start talking about their life, because they inevitably bring up, like, oh, I’m really struggling in my relationship. I’m struggling with um an addiction. I’m struggling with, and you know, I’m the first to admit, I’m not a therapist. But as I coach them through some of these life principles, you know, and and a divorce, let’s say, as the example. Yes. Divorce is not just a legal process. This is an emotional, a spiritual, it’s a psychological, you know, challenge. It’s it’s something that challenges you on all of those fronts, not just a legal document that you sign one day and move on. And uh it’s funny because this the healing component requires humility. So even when a business person comes in and they’re struggling with something and they’re blaming, you know, a lot of times, um, and for some reason they don’t realize that maybe it could also be them.
Yes.
Uh, I try to help, you know, softly point it back to them and say, okay, so if these things are you’re complaining about your partner, even a business partner or your spousal partner, what if you were to look inward first? You know, what are the elements that you could do differently? If they said something and it triggered you, was it really them that triggered you? Tony Robbins is famous for saying that, you know, triggers we are the only person who can be triggered. It’s because if that person said the same thing to someone else, it wouldn’t trigger them. Yes. Therefore, the trigger is you.
Yeah.
And I look at triggers, uh, and triggers maybe people don’t like that word, but it’s a message to me from God that’s saying you have something to heal.
Yes. You and I are on the same page. That’s exactly what I say to all my clients. I’m like, absolutely. It’s so true. It’s so true. So I just hope people read it so self-awareness. Yes.
When the trigger comes before you react, yeah.
Let’s take a moment to pause.
Let’s think about how we’re going to respond. Yes. And uh, you know, in a relationship, repair is one of the most important elements, right? And I know that that we struggle with that. Repair was a hard thing. Uh apologies came, we would, we would apologize. But like a true deep repair that can build the relationship, to me, it’s like a muscle. When you exercise and that muscle tears, there’s a tear, a rupture in the relationship. You need a little bit of time, but also, you know, deep vulnerable healing to repair that like a muscle. But then when it’s repaired, it’s even stronger. And I think that a lot of relationships can be repaired. But that repair comes, takes humility, it takes vulnerability.
Yes. So many people really struggle to be vulnerable. So I won’t ask. Yeah.
So I had to ask myself, why were we not able to be as vulnerable as we could have? Why weren’t we able to talk about the deepest, darkest hurts, feelings, struggles? Why couldn’t we get there? And as I went through this, I would love your thoughts. I found that there’s a mother wound and father wounds. And I’m not an expert in this, but like, for example, a father wound will typically um some of the symptoms of a father wound in a woman is that they become hyper-independent. They lack vulnerability and they keep people at arm’s length. So if there is a father wound, and the father wound doesn’t mean that your your dad was uh uh physically abusive or sexually abusive. Now those are obvious big T trauma that needs healing, needs therapy, that needs help. But it can even just be the lack of emotional availability. Or um maybe your dad is more of a man’s man. And as a girl, you didn’t get his his love and attention like your brothers did. Um, because he didn’t know how to do that. He didn’t know how to relate. And even though it wasn’t in an abusive type setting, you felt lack of love. Yeah. And that created those three elements uh lack of vulnerability, you know, hyper independent, and keep people at arm’s length. So if you’re if you’re hearing this is just on one component with women and a father wound, let’s say a mother wound as a man, having a mother wound, again, I love my mother. There is nothing wrong in my upbringing. Uh my parents are incredible. And I know a lot of times we hear people blaming their parents.
Absolutely, all the time.
We can’t do that. They were doing the best they could with what they had. And and my upbringing was beautiful. And yet, even a simple example, I’m the youngest of four, and I do this with my own children. If I wanted attention and I sought attention from my mom, but she was helping my older sibling, she would kindly have to say, okay, just hang tight. Let me finish whatever with the sibling. That’s totally normal. But even that recurring over and over again possibly made me feel like I wasn’t as loved as another sibling. Was that true? Absolutely not. My mom loved me just as much, but maybe I felt those little things that created a wound. And so, unless I take some time to be self-aware and think about, like, oh my gosh, maybe maybe I felt those feelings, even though it wasn’t intended. And even though my mom totally loved me, you know, uh an insane amount. So no blame at all on the parents. And yes, some parents have made horrible choices and and some should be in jail for what they did, right?
Um, but uh and I’m so sorry for anyone who’s had to deal with with big T trauma issues, because that’s that’s horrific and it’s it’s so sad um when that happens. So please get therapy. Yeah find people who understand attachment, who understand childhood wounds, IFS is it it’s called internal family systems. So some therapists have expertise in that, and I would highly recommend it for for people who need to go through that healing. But how would you say that like when someone is dealing with uh a mother or a father wound, like how do they get beyond that? How do they heal from some of those pieces?
Making Peace, Boundaries, And Repair
Have you dealt with that before?
Uh well, I mean, I feel like for me, it’s learning to make peace with your past, right? To understand, like, okay, my parents. Like accepting your parents’ weaknesses or whatever. Now, obviously, if it’s really affecting you, you need to go to therapy for that. But for me, how I have helped people is just helping them make peace with it and decide okay, what now? Because we can’t change our past. So many people think, well, if I would have done this different in our past, then maybe I wouldn’t be experiencing this. No, we know that we we’re supposed to experience it because we are. And so making peace with it is accepting it, having so much compassion and love. And then, okay, what do we want now? And so, of course, some people really struggle and need to go down in the deep crevices of their family, right? But other people can be like, okay, I can accept that that happened. Now what? Who do I want to be? Do I want to blame all my problems on my mom and dad? Right. That’s very not helpful. Very victim. And I’m all about empowerment. And it’s like, okay, let’s make peace with it. Because I’ve had to do this with my own children, make repair, because I realized I was checked out as a mom because I was in such emotional duress. I was frozen and I didn’t even know it. I called myself, I was in functional freeze probably most of my marriage. And so I thought I was doing all the things, but I wasn’t because I was frozen inside because I had so much pain. And I think vulnerability, it just the more comfortable you are with yourself, and and I just think the lack of vulnerability is shame. And shame is what wants us, we feel shame, so we want to blame it on everyone else. And so when we can let go of that shame and own what is ours to own, we can have such a better, much better life and more connection with someone. Because, you know, when we believe, of course, we all make bad choices. We all make stupid, we make stupid things, but we aren’t a bad person.
Yeah.
Even my former husband, he made lots of bad choices, but he isn’t a bad person, right? He but shame tells you I’m a bad person, right? So I I just think I love all the knowledge you have about all this. Cause I, for me, I’m a knowledge person. I think knowledge is power. The more I understand about what went wrong inside of me, can help me make sure it never happens again, right? But the truth is I can’t prevent someone, you know, having an affair, but I’m gonna do my darndest to make sure I find someone that is a loyal person. Totally. So I’m more secure in themselves. Yes, more secure. And I’m more secure in myself. So I think I’m showing up different, right?
You might have different boundaries when you have more secure.
Absolutely. I had no boundaries. I didn’t know any of this. So learning boundaries, all the things that you talked about, I think are really powerful.
So before you move on, though, hold on, before you move on.
Shame Versus Guilt And Repentance
Yes, guilt and shame. I want to talk about the difference real fast. So you bring up shame because it’s a huge component in our culture. Yes. Uh you know, for those of Christians who have been going to church and shame is one of those things that it feels like is all over the place. Yes. I look at sh this is a funny way to remember. Yeah. Shame starts with S and it comes from Satan. Guilt is starts with G and comes from God. And the reason I think this is my belief, is that you know, shame, like you exactly like you mentioned, when you do something wrong, shame says you are the wrong, you are a wrong person.
Yeah, something defective inside of you. Yeah.
But guilt is saying you did something wrong and you need to repair it. Yes. So whether that’s repentance or saying sorry or returning it or whatever, that guilt is good, it comes from God. Shame is evil and it comes from Satan. So knowing that there’s different pieces and recognizing which is which, I think can give someone a huge advantage when they’re moving on. And when they make mistakes, which we all will, which one are you feeling? Is it the shame that’s not coming from God? Or is it God given guilt that will allow you to know you need to heal from that?
Yeah.
And repair. That to me is when couples, when they go to say, when they apologize, they feel a prick in their heart, even if they don’t think they’re wrong.
Yes.
They go and they apologize for whatever the situation was. And they can take accountability for their part in that thing. That to me is a good, God-given peace. And repentance, I think, is part of that the guilt. We recognize it, we feel sorrowful for it, we commit to not doing that thing again, and then we we can move on from that thing. And now, will we have a scar from whatever has happened in our life? Yeah, I think God gives us those scars. They were a deep open wound that was so sensitive to the touch. But as they healed and were cleaned out so that they can heal properly, the scar is a reminder to never do that thing again. Or that you can have boundaries for the other person to not do that thing to you again. Absolutely. So again, that that is just one of those clarifications I hope people remember in their own.
I like that. I like that. And anytime you feel shame, it’s when you want to have the urge to blame it on someone else. I call it the shame blame trap. So yeah, I liked your way of remembering it. It’s so good. So, anyways, we have so much to
Part Two Tease And Free Quiz
talk about. So we’re going to do an episode two, but thanks so much, Bubba, for being here today. I really appreciate all your input and knowledge. Like you can tell you’ve done your work. I’m trying. And I think that’s important. I think as a woman, that’s what a woman is looking for is someone that’s done their work. Once we’ve done our work, I think men, I think sometimes get a bad rap for not doing their work. So I think that’s a beautiful thing. Anyways, thanks so much for being here, everyone, and we will see you next week. Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Happily Even After Betrayal. If you want to understand what stage of betrayal you’re in, head to my website at lifecoachgen.com. That’s Jen with one N, and take the free quiz. It’s a simple step you can take today toward creating your own happily even after.
