Welcome to my podcast. Happily, even After. I’m life coach, jen, I’m passionate about helping people recover from betrayal. I rode the intense emotional roller coaster and felt stuck and traumatized for years. It’s the reason I became a trauma-informed certified life coach who helps people like you navigate their post-betrayal world. I have the tools, processes and knowledge to help you not only heal from the betrayal but create a healthy future. Today, we begin to help you live happily even after.
Hey friends, welcome to today’s podcast. I’m so excited to have a special guest on today and so interesting how the World Wide Web works right Instagram and connected that way. So I just I love how. For me, I love social media because it can connect us with people that we would have never met before but have had our shared experience with each other. It might be a different experience. Her story is different than my story, yet our pain is probably very similar, and so I just love that. So she agreed to be on my podcast, so I’m so excited to introduce her. Her name’s Jenny and I’m just going to let her go ahead and tell us a little bit about her.
Hello and thank you for having me. It’s really fun to meet you like over the internet, here via Zoom.
I love that.
Yeah, love the content you produce. Yeah, so my name is Jenny Brockbank, and a little bit about me is I’m a mom of six. I love the color red. It took me a while to figure out, even in betrayal trauma, what my favorite color was. I don’t know if people can relate with that to where it’s like we just lose ourselves a bit, but when I figured that out I was so excited.
All right, I would have been married 25 years this last March, but I did file for divorce two years ago. It’s not final yet, but that’s where I’m at right now. And now I am really honored to be working as the executive director of a nonprofit called Her Wings Unfold, and we help women heal from another’s abuse, addiction, adultery and or abandonment, and we do that in various ways, with advocacy. We do that. We have some plans for things like a physical facility where we hope to offer trauma-sensitive yoga, art therapy and other things. We also, though, have our brand new, fresh out of the gate, been through different test groups trauma-sensitive 12-step program, and it is called TS12 and on for trauma-sensitive 12-steps, anonymous.
Can I just so really fast. You’re located in Utah, is that right?
Yes, yes.
But do people have to live in Utah to be in your program, or how does that work?
So for trauma-sensitive 12 steps, we have online virtual meetings and really the only cost would be the cost of the book. So the literature to participate. We love that format because, I mean, anybody in the healing world knows healing is expensive and trauma survivors it’s worth the money. But what do you do when you don’t have it?
Trauma survivors it’s worth the money but what do you do when you don’t have it? Yeah, no, it’s so great. And also the convenience of online, right Like, I meet with my clients on Zoom, so that means I can meet with them wherever they live and wherever they’re at. And then a lot of times, they have young kids and it’s really hard. Then it’s like, okay, I have to get a babysitter so I can go to therapy, like, okay, I have to get a babysitter so I can go to therapy, and then so I’m so grateful.
Zoom is a thing because you can heal right in your own home.
I love that. Yeah, yeah. So you focus just with women, is that right?
Well, mostly so. The focus of our foundation is women. I will say that with Trauma Sensitive 12 Steps, the groups are autonomous and so people can create their own meetings. So we have a general meeting that would be for anyone who’s experienced relational trauma, but we also have, like a betrayal trauma, women’s only specific meeting on Thursday nights. And so it’s just a wide variety and each group gets to kind of make up their own rules and their own meeting qualifications for who can attend.
Okay, yeah, because I know from experience there’s a lot of men out there that are also suffering from betrayal trauma, right, and I think, bizarrely, this is one area that men well, I don’t know women hold a lot of shame, but I think men almost sometimes hold more shame when their wife has had an affair.
Yeah, I think you’re right.
I don’t want to compare, but for whatever reason, it’s like the normal, don’t you think? Like men are the ones that are usually unfaithful? I don’t know but they have to be unfaithful with. Usually they’re unfaithful with a woman Now, sometimes it’s not that way, but anyways.
No, I hear you, and the cool thing is is that if men are, they’re like gosh. We would love that support and we like the literature. They can start their own meeting with their own qualifications, and so we would love to see that happen.
Yeah, and so they have to get approved through your foundation. Is that how it works?
Well, because they’re autonomous, they don’t necessarily have to be approved, but they can be listed on our website, and what we would do, though, is, if there are, how we would keep a little bit of group safety. We do like to offer optional training for those starting groups, and we’d like to offer, like slide presentations, that they can show so that’s so. That’s easier to run a group. And then also, if we would get, say, too many complaints or something, we would probably remove that group from from the website.
But we don’t anticipate that happening, you know so, yeah, someone that’s passionate, that wants to help people, are gonna be a good fit probably probably so you focus on the four, four a’s. Is that what you called them?
yeah, yeah.
Abuse, addiction, adultery and abandonment. So tell me a little bit why you focused on those and why you think those go well together.
I mean they kind of do I agree?
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I will just use in the case of, say, someone has a sex addiction, right, and so now you’re dealing with addiction. Well, in order for anyone to have an addiction that’s going to prosper, there’s going to have to be some kind of lying and hiding. Usually that involves some sort of form of manipulation or gaslighting or something like that. So now we have abuse addiction, sliding or something like that. So now we have abuse addiction.
It might turn into adultery, if it’s like any kind of sex addiction or anything like that. And then also, with abandonment, all of a sudden they’re either so involved in their destructive behaviors or they also have to disconnect from a partner to betray them, and so then it’s like they’re emotionally disconnected, they’re physically disconnected, spiritually, like just all of the things, and it’s very intense. So what we find is is that if there is one thing, there’s often multiple. That doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s the case across the board, but, but mostly I would say it is that if there’s going to be one sort of 4A behavior, there’s going to be others as well.
Yeah, and I think for me, like my, for my own story, like I would have never said I was in an abusive marriage, I would have never said that I definitely knew my spouse was having had had and was having affairs, but I would never have named it abusive. And until I was able to get out and start healing because I think I was so in it that I wasn’t even aware and I’m like, well, he wasn’t hitting me, like to me people know, like, oh, abuse feels more physical, but the amount of emotional abuse, it’s really sad. I don’t know how far into your marriage did you realize what was going on, or did it take you to get out of it, to feel that?
that Well, nine months into my marriage. Funny story was that I realized I was like oh, it looks like in our joint email account, which they learn and get trickier. But in our joint email account there were some open emails that were explicit. And I remember going and talking to him and saying I love you, I forgive you, go talk to the bishop, who’s our ecclesiastical leader, and don’t do it again. And then I realized, oh, he is doing it again and again, and again and again, but it was hidden so well that I wouldn’t. It was like I would see a mouse every few years. I remember telling him you know, if there’s one mouse, I think there’s got to be more on the walls. You know, I think I’m just seeing this, this one little thing, but I think there’s more. And he would say no, no, no, no. But about 17 and a half years into our marriage I had just. Really I’m like I can’t do this anymore.
Yeah.
I cannot do this anymore. I remember kneeling down and saying Heavenly Father. And saying, heavenly Father, I will do anything, I’ll do therapy and I’ll do 12 steps and I’ll do just all of the things. And I remember this really strong impression that help was now on the way and I thought, really you were my therapist. Now I have to go and do all these other things, but I remember this feeling like I don’t have to reinvent the wheel for you and you’ll heal in community, which has proved true.
It’s really beautiful, I do. I think group healing is really powerful. I do both individual and group but I agree. So you had the prompting your whole marriage, but you thought, kept on thinking Do you think you’re religious? I am too. Do you think that part of it kept you in your marriage for longer?
Oh for sure. Yeah, in my religion, I mean, which I love, we are strong believers in covenants and covenant relationships and when we get married it’s for eternity, not till death, do you part. So for me it was like, oh, if I leave this relationship, you know I’m breaking a covenant, not realizing, honestly, what I do now. Better is that I wasn’t the one who broke the relationship. I wasn’t the one who broke the covenants, I wasn’t the one who you know told lies and did all of the things like that wasn’t me.
Yeah, but don’t you think well, for I’m just going to speak for myself. I’m a rule follower and I am very obedient, so it’s almost like we felt responsible. I for sure felt responsible, and I’m like it never. I just thought oh no, I can keep this together, I can hold it together, I can fix this.
Oh yeah.
I for sure, my spouse for sure said it was my fault, right, like if you were nicer, if you looked a certain way. He was very focused on my outward appearance, so I just always felt not good enough and so I was always in my marriage I can see he was that he was better than me and put me down and I, I guess, became comfortable in that position, which is really breaks my heart for myself, but I think a lot of women do that.
Oh, I think we do. I mean, I certainly did so much of that to where, at least for me, the concept is is oh, if there’s something I can do to fix this, then I have some kind of power over this situation, not realizing actually, when there are destructive behaviors going on that I’m not participating in, I can’t actually fix somebody else and what they’re doing. You know better ways to handle that.
Now I know of course there are boundaries or are taking excellent care of myself, soul care you know, just doing all of the things to make sure I’m okay after experiencing hard and traumatic things, but I didn’t know that back then. You know, unlike you I’m like okay, well, maybe if I look this certain way or he’s really volatile, so it was one of those. If I keep the kids quiet, or you know all of the things like that, then maybe it’ll be okay and maybe it’ll calm down and my marriage and family will be all right.
Yeah, yeah. So your kids? How old are your kids?
I’ve got a 22-year-old, a 19-year-old who’s on a mission for our church. I’ve got a 16-year-old, and then 12, 11, and 10.
So those last three were born really close together. And how are they dealing with the separation, divorce? How are they feeling about things?
Well, that, to me, is one of the greatest tragedies of what has happened. When my husband left, he exposed my children to a great amount of trauma. And within a year and a half, I had three children who were hospitalized for suicidal issues. And so it has been very intense, like very, very, very intense. I will say I see some progress now that it’s been.
It’s been two years, you know so almost well, I think the thing is, our kids are shattered because their reality is not their reality anymore right and our reality is not our reality anymore, and so reality and fantasy it’s like wait, you’ve taught me this way, at least in my experience. My former spouse was very religious, and then it’s not at all Like living a totally different lifestyle. And he raised his kids in, and so then it’s like wait a second. It’s so confusing for them.
So, of course they’re going to feel that and it’s like wait, our family was forever and now it’s not. What does that mean for me?
Definitely that’s hard for anyone to wrap their mind around, but I think, especially kids who and they have no control, they have no power over the situation and all of a sudden they’re going to have two homes. It’s just very, very hard and stressful for them, yes, so hard, so hard, so it makes sense.
But I think for me, like I think there’s so so much repair and ability for kids, especially as they get older, things will make sense to them they’ll be like oh, we were walking on eggshells now I understand why we were walking on eggshells.
Now I understand why we were walking on eggshells. I have hope. I have hope I’m not there yet, but I have hope I’m going know. But it is hard because they most kids want they still love their mom and they love their dad, Even though their dad did some really awful things, right, Right. So that’s hard, but continue on.
Jenny, I guess I’ll share that a little bit more about my story. Yeah, I think women might relate with this part in that so often I mean, we’re told leave the abuse, you know, and given judgment for it. Actually we’re given judgment if we don’t stay too. So it’s like there is no winning the war of opinions. But I would say to the thoughts of leaving the abuse I heard what they were saying, I understood the concept behind it, but I’m telling you, when I would pray about it, I just had the strong feeling it’s going to be really, really, really hard and I thought well, this is hard Living in it too is really
hard, you know, but finally some lines were crossed that I just couldn’t come back, come back from, and so it was a little crazy. I had I’d filed a protective order and got that and then filed for divorce and I don’t know. I think I was very surprised at the amount of abuse that happened post-separation. I was so surprised I know that doesn’t happen to everybody, but it does to some of us to where it’s like okay, I left a really hard situation for another incredibly hard situation and there had been just so many hard things, and recently I’ll share, you know I’d had suicidal children, one of them I had full custody of, and because of that I just really I couldn’t get employment outside of my home. She needed some supervision and so, as such, I was working from home.
But we went, we sold our home and when we did, there was plenty of money for me to like relocate. But he petitioned the court to put all of the money into escrow and won, and so basically that made me and my children homeless for a good two months. It was so intense and so hard for a good two months. It was so intense and so hard. But one thing that I love and appreciate was the community really came together for me and my children, like in very beautiful ways, I did a GoFundMe, which I don’t like doing that.
That’s not my favorite thing, but it really was one of those I’m like I don’t know what to do exactly, but don’t you think people want to help and that’s such a beautiful way that people can help and money is helpful, especially in this situation and I do think you’re right.
I think they did want to help and they did step in and I’ve been able to relocate, live in a really cute townhome in a safe neighborhood and just feel a lot better about my situation with my children here.
Do you think he became this way because he was exposed, or the lack of control, or what do you think? Or do you have even gone there?
Yeah, I haven’t figured all of that out. To be honest, I do know he would. He would talk about his first exposure. Was it like nine years old? So?
so there was that. Well, it happened when I was little. I can’t help this, yeah, to blame it on that.
Yeah, I mean, that is part of it. I don’t know Something. Something I’ve shared previously is that he also has mental illness, and so then I think it exasperated it and I couldn’t, I can’t really tell you all the reasons why, but they’re, they feed off of each other somehow.
Yeah, yeah, I just I find it fascinating. I’m like, what is he thinking, right, like, why make this harder than it needed to be?
Why make it harder than it needed to be, and to me it’s like, if you’re, you’re harming your child’s mother by something so strong you know with like a place to live that’s just so necessary yeah it’s harmful for the children too yeah, and but I, I for sure, I mean for sure shame, right, so much shame yeah so the inability to make it his fault, to accept his responsibility, I think, focuses.
He wants to blame it on you, so he’s going to make you suffer. Yes, absolutely Lots of Darvo, you know you probably talked about that with your audience, for sure. In case, I’ll just mention it again yeah, say what Darvo stands for.
Yeah, they deny, they accuse and then they reverse the victim and the offender. Your audience for sure, in case I’ll just mention it again, say what darvo stands for. Yeah, they deny, they accuse and then they reverse the victim and the offender. Yes, and it is a classic way that they just don’t take accountability and make try to make it look at least like yeah, the victim is actually the perpetrator.
Yeah, and don’t you think like, and we’re like, oh my gosh, maybe it is. Maybe I did do something wrong, maybe I was mean this one time. Maybe I didn’t pick your clothes up exactly how you wanted them to and I didn’t. I forgot to do the laundry one day and I didn’t have dinner on the table at five. So, okay, let me try again, cause I was a stay at home mom, so I stay-at-home mom for 26 years.
Yeah, I think you’re right, because really, the partner, who is not the offending spouse. We’re working on ourselves, we’re like trying to be. It was like I want to show up. Well, I want to show up as my best self. I want to make repair, I want to apologize for things that I did you know?
I want to be my very best self, and so then, when it’s like they’re finding all the little things, yeah, it sounds like you started being aware like I need to get help before because, see, I never had anyone tell me why.
I don’t think I asked anyone actually like if I should get divorced or not. I just did it, but no one would have said you’re in an abusive marriage to me.
Yeah, that’s so hard right.
So it sounds like you were getting help from before.
Yeah, At that point I would say I’ve been in recovery since 2017. Okay so so yeah, I’ve been getting help for a while, but before that you know but before that, you know, before that I wouldn’t tell anyone I I painted a really rosy picture and he would do things like open my car door, yes, then he’d get in and yell at me. You know that kind of thing.
So it was really intense, to where it it sometimes looks good, you know for sure, it’s family at church with six cute kids and yeah yeah, did he live that life, a religious life too.
He did, yeah, and he still does.
Interesting.
It is interesting.
So he’s still involved in church and that is hard for you, that would be hard for me.
I think it’s confusing for me, but you know I do want that for my children. So overall I’m just really glad that he does that. But I just know for me, and not even talking about him per se, but if I’m living a double life I almost can’t live with myself. I can’t function well. It’s like if there’s something I need to make repair for or repent of or whatever, I really need to get that off of my chest so to be able to live a double life consistently for years at a time.
I don’t know how people do that yeah, I think they compartmentalize and they’ve justified their behavior. And even if he’s like, well, this happens since I was nine, like okay, you’re an adult now and now it’s time to fix it. Right so your whole family is crumbling and you’re still choosing the pornography addiction, because his addiction was mostly in pornography, as far as I know, as far as I know. So, yeah, it’s very fascinating, right, and I’m so glad that you were able to get I mean, you got help a lot sooner than I did, but I think it’s great so you could build on HEAL and you can teach your kids these things right.
Oh, totally, and you can teach your kids these things right. Oh, totally. Do they know what their dad has done? Or have you had to hide that or not hide it, but are you not able to talk to him about it?
Well, one cool thing that I think he did was before we were divorced. He did sit them all down at one point and he was trying to work on things and did say this is what I know, what I’ve struggled with, and he did tell them all I’ve really hurt your mom at the time and he took some ownership for it then until it escalated more. But and the other thing is regarding the trauma he was the one who exposed them to some very severe situations. So a lot of it we do talk about, or we can talk about at least openly, because you just can’t hide what happened you know, and that he’s already talked to everybody about it yeah, but that’s good, then that’s good.
And I mean he did take some ownership right but it did it kind of cancels it out when they like then do all the other stuff. It’s like wait, it’s not intense, right, yes, shoot. So do you have a court date? Do you know when your divorce is going to be finalized?
It might be finalized August 1st We’ll see.
Oh good, We’ll see.
There’s some ongoing things, but you never know, right.
Yeah, with kids I know it can be complicated and many all that yeah for sure. So tell us if people that are listening to my podcast if they want to get more information about what you do. I’ll, of course, put it all in the show notes, but how can they get in touch with you? What’s the best way to do that?
yeah, probably through our platform. So we’ve got ts12 and on, which is trauma sensitive, 12 steps anonymous and you have religion.
I guess all anonymous things are religious, are they or no?
so they’re not religious, they’re spiritual. They’re spiritually based though so you get to bring any religion that you would like to the healing experience and we do talk a lot about, in fact. Can I focus on that for?
a minute yeah, because I do love 12 steps a lot, but I have found we know more now we can do better. Yes, and so, as such, I feel like a lot of 12-step programs were written on codependent and co-addict models. So we wrote this on a, on a codependent trauma model, where so codependence honors that there was like there’s a profound need and honors that when we’re trying to fix relationships with people, that’s normal. Yes, that’s normal, Instead of saying you’re just co-addicted or something you know, which can be very destructive.
And so the other thing is we do it with a trauma model, which is really cool because people can look and see the three stages of the trauma model we use are safety and stabilization, grief and mourning and integration and growth. And the really cool thing is that with, as they’re working, the steps, you can look and say you know what, right now I just need safety and you can focus on that aspect. So, like a traditional step four can be very invalidating for a trauma survivor, because traditional step fours are about character defects. We don’t love that term.
People can eventually work a traditional step four in our program just we’d call it something different, like survival mechanisms, that kind of thing. But but they can also work. They can go in and we’ve got like a list on our website of different suggestions of inventories. They can do things like self-worth that would validate that. That would be like a safety plan. Recently I did one that I really loved that was a fear inventory and was able to look and say, oh, this is why I’m feeling this distressed about this and it was able to validate and to ultimately move forward in a better way, more healthy way, more grounded way. So it’s really powerful in that people come as they are and we’re very cautious with the language. Traditional 12 steps will have words like sanity. We’re losing sanity. Well, betrayed spouses you know, those who’ve experienced any of the 4As feel crazy a lot of the time.
Yeah, I used to think I was crazy. I’m like, oh my gosh, I think I’m crazy.
I know Me too Well, no like no, I was not crazy.
That’m like. Oh my gosh, I think I’m crazy, like I know Me too Well. No, like, no, I was not crazy. That was my gut telling me like you are right on and they’re trying to throw you off because they do not want to get caught, right, yeah, yes, yes.
And it’s such a disorienting way to live, you know. Yeah so when we can validate. Yeah, of course you’re feeling that way. That’s normal to feel that way, and what can we do to stay in truth and what can we do to calm our nervous systems, because it’s so distressing when we’re feeling all the things like that.
Yes, I love that. It sounds like it has lots more compassion, right? So much compassion, self-compassion is woven throughout the entire program. I love that and.
I really value that for myself, for my own healing. I feel like when I could shift into self-compassion, my healing took off in different ways that it hadn’t before.
Yeah, I agree. I think that’s so spot on. And drop the judgment right Totally. Yeah, so true. Well, I love that you’re doing this work Right there with you, right yeah thank you.
We have different paths that we’re doing, but I think there’s sadly a lot of people in this world that, whether it’s pornography or just abuse, addiction, adultery, abandonment, all those things pornography or just abuse, addiction, adultery, abandonment, all those things people are suffering and need a safe place to go. And so I just love that and I don’t think I know. When I got married in the 90s, there wasn’t trauma, trauma. Knowledge has really just been more prevalent in like 2010 and on right, like some betrayal trauma. They didn’t even have a name for it, right, right. And so I even I had done some therapy and it’s like are you having enough sex? And I’m like that’s not the problem. Yes, sex life is not the problem, I can guarantee that.
That was me too. I’m like I’ve tried all the things you know, I just remember thinking sex addiction is not going to be in my marriage. If I can help it, you know I’m going to make sure, but uh, that that backfired. I think yeah, well, you didn’t know like I didn’t know. I think we’re naive.
I, I don’t know. I’m glad I’m naive, like I like who I am, like I like that. I don’t not super worldly. I’ve learned a lot and definitely become more than I was before, but yeah, I think we just learn and grow and then you have a heart like mine. We want to help people.
Definitely yeah.
Definitely yeah.
I love that we share that.
Yes, well, jenny, it’s so nice to meet you. Thank you so much for being on my podcast, and we’ll talk about how to get all the information to me. But anyways, before we go.
Could I share the platforms Would?
that be okay, yes, okay.
So you can contact us at ts12anonorg and you can find a meeting there. You can also buy the book which there’s a link on ts12anon for that. You can go to herwingsunfoldorg and contact us there. But you can also follow us on Instagram and we’re herwingsunfold on Instagram, but we are also. We just started a brand new podcast to us at least, that’s called Relational Trauma SOS. That addresses 4A behavior, and we would love to have you join us with that.
So thank you, yeah, thank you for having us All right, and I’ll put all that in the show notes just in case we keep driving and you can’t write this down. But anyways, all right, friends, thanks so much for listening. If you like this podcast, please share it with your family and friends and I will talk to you next week. If you want to learn how to live happily even after, sign up for my email at hello at lifecoachjen with one n dot com, follow me on Instagram and Facebook at happily even after coach. Let’s work together to create your happily even after.
