Welcome to my podcast, happily Even After. I’m life coach, jen. I’m passionate about helping people recover from betrayal. I rode the intense emotional roller coaster and felt stuck and traumatized for years. It’s the reason I became a trauma-informed certified life coach who helps people like you navigate their post-betrayal world. I have the tools, processes and knowledge to help you not only heal from the betrayal but create a healthy future. Today we begin to help you live happily even after. Hey friends, welcome to today’s podcast Today.
Today I have a special guest on that I’m really excited about, and I actually had her on a few weeks ago and I completely forgot to push record. I’m recording our podcast, which is so typical of something that I would do, but anyways, we are back and I’m actually recording it. So you’re going to hear how amazing she is. But her name is Monica Tanner and we’ve never met in person. We were just introduced by a mutual acquaintance, actually the person that edits and makes my podcast sound amazing, and it’s funny because her podcast is called Happily Ever After, and so we for sure should be friends, since we have a very similar thought process when creating. So, anyways, her name is Monica Tanner and I’m going to let her introduce herself and we’ll go from there.
Yeah, hi. Thank you so much for having me, jen, for the second time. Yes, I am a relationship and intimacy coach and expert. I work with couples to increase intimacy and rid them of resentment and roommate syndrome. I have been doing this I have been podcasting for about seven years and I’ve been coaching exclusively couples for about three years. So lots, lots of experience and love working with couples.
Yeah, me too. I have such a soft spot for marriages, like even though my marriage ended in divorce, like I’m very pro marriage, so I think if people can figure it out, that’s so much better than I mean, divorce is sometimes the right answer, but I just think if people could figure it out. And we just don’t know what we don’t know when we get married. So I know you wrote a book and I’d love to hear about that.
Yeah, so the book is called Bad Marriage Advice, debunking myths that will make you miserable and what to do instead. And so the impetus behind the book was that my oldest son is getting married and I remember him telling me that he was getting married and I was so excited for him and I sat down to write, like all of you know, my thoughts and advice on. You know what I’ve learned in my own 23 years of marriage, as well as working with couples, and that little love note turned into a full-blown book.
So it’s been really fun to write.
Yeah, it’s been fun to write and I hope that it will be helpful not only for him and his new wife, but also for married couples, young and old, who have been married a short time and a long time. Hopefully it brings a smile to your face and hope into your marriage.
Yeah, and I think there are so many myths that we are all told, like when we get married, and I think people think kind of they’re funny or that maybe they believe they really will work. I don’t know, but I think there’s a lot of myths out there that for sure need debunking. So what are some of your favorites that we can talk about?
Well, there’s so many favorites, but the one that if you marry the right person, they’ll never hurt you. That divorce is not an option. Never go to sleep angry. Don’t sweat the small stuff. Happy wife, happy life. A good wife keeps her husband fulfilled. I mean we can start anywhere and talk about any of those.
Yeah, those are well. Happy wife, happy life. Like I feel like I heard that a lot and I felt like my former husband used to say that and it made me so mad. Oh, yeah, it was so irritating because I’m like well, you’re clearly not making me happy, right? Because he was cheating on me and lying to me. So I’m like you make no sense when you say that. So tell me what’s your thoughts on happy wife, happy life?
Yeah, I think it’s really cliche and I think it’s kind of cute. You know, I think men say it and women are like, oh, how sweet he wants to make me happy, right?
I did not think that.
But it’s really, really hard to create a relationship for two people when only one person’s wishes or desires are being fulfilled. Not only that, but it puts a lot of responsibility on the person who, you know, is supposedly wearing the pants or has all the responsibility or needs to be happy all the time. So I think it creates a lot of problems, not only for the person who has the bulk of the responsibility, but also for the husband in this case, who was like oh, you know, I always defer to the wife. You know, I always whatever she wants, I just do whatever she says. A he’s not, you know, making his needs known and eventually that creates a lot of resentment and disconnection and you know they start to just tune out because they’re like oh well, you know, I never get my needs met anyways. So you know whatever.
But not only that, but you know it kind of implies some negative stuff. Like you know, if my wife’s not happy, nobody’s happy. Or if I don’t give her what she wants, she’s just going to nag and be mean, and you know all of these things. So there’s actually a lot of negative connotation to it. But it sounds really cute when you’re doing an interview and you’re like what’s your secret to a happy life?
And the man’s like oh, she’s always right, she gets what she wants, she wears the pants, you know, yeah, and it gives so much power to.
It’s like you have power over someone’s emotions and don’t allow them. Like happiness is not the only emotion, like a full life has every emotion, and so it implies that having a negative emotion is bad, but, like we sometimes want to have a negative emotion and that’s OK.
So true, so true and you know you hear a lot of that as well Like it doesn’t matter what I do, she’s never happy. You know, yes, are being kind of equally thought about or considered in the relationship. Then you actually really have the basis for a good, happy, communicative relationship and really all of these myths the through line of all of them is creating very healthy communication. Otherwise, happy wife, happy life is really lazy, Like, oh well, I don’t have to communicate my desires because we just always defer to hers, right?
Yes, yeah, and we have opinions, and if you don’t voice your opinions, that’s resentment, right, like for sure. So much resentment from that message. All right, another one divorce.
Let’s talk about that, since I am first and yeah, well, you know again, all of this advice that I think is given, you know, just kind of cliche and commonly the idea behind it is nice. But I hear a lot of marriage experts especially, especially like in my field, who are like take divorce off the table, it’s not an option.
You know we just don’t think about divorce and then there’s no problem. And the idea behind it is to create commitment, like, oh well, we can’t get divorced, so we’re committed, and so you know we’re going to work through every problem. But the reality is A it’s not true. Divorce is always an option.
Like, either party at any time can decide that they want to do something. We don’t live in the dark ages. We live in a time that you can and women can. It used to be women couldn’t get divorced, so that really was a real thing. That’s probably when that happened, right when we started saying that. But nowadays we really can get divorced.
Yeah, I mean, it’s always an option. So let’s just be honest with each other, like at any point either party can decide that they want to end the marriage. But also not dealing with issues in the marriage or you know places where you can improve is like what’s your motivation to actually make yourself more pleasing to your partner if they’re locked in and they don’t, you know. So that’s like kind of. I’ll give you an example of this couple that I have worked with, and I actually only work with the husband. The wife refuses to come to any type of therapy. Why what’s her motivation? Because they operate under the idea that divorce is not an option. So he comes and he’s very disillusioned in the marriage. He’s very, you know, responsibility for anything. She refuses to make any changes or make herself more pleasing to me, and so he’s very disconnected.
He’s very disillusioned. I feel so bad for him, because do we need our spouse to get to heaven? I don’t think so.
I don’t think so either, right, and so it’s just a very destructive mindset. Instead of creating a marriage that both parties choose to be in, it’s like no, we have to be here, and it actually creates less commitment than otherwise, because, you know, I’m committed to creating a marriage that we both really enjoy and thrive in, versus we’re locked in so I’m just going to sit on the couch and eat bonbons and do nothing, because you have no other option but to stay here with me.
Yeah, that’s so miserable, and God doesn’t want us to be miserable. So if we’re going to bring God into it like, God to me is just a miserable marriage.
Not to mention the type of abuse that, like you know that you endured right For so many years, thinking like well, I have to stay in this marriage. Probably we were sealed in the temple and you know we shouldn’t get a divorce, and so I just have to figure out how to deal with this, which is so unhealthy right, yeah, it totally is Okay.
So what’s another one? That’s a popular one of your myths. Let’s talk about another one.
So I like this idea of don’t sweat the small stuff. That one really makes me laugh because it’s so cliche and we hear all the time yes, don’t sweat the small stuff, learn how to compromise, like that whole thing, and really the small stuff becomes the big stuff. Like, how do you think the big stuff gets big? Well, it started at some point as small stuff. So just disregarding the small stuff and like stuffing down your emotions and not taking each other on and talking about the things that are bothering you is definitely not a good strategy for a lifelong you know, healthy relationship.
Yeah, I totally agree with that, because the little things for sure become big things.
Yeah, and would you rather deal with them when they’re small or deal with them when they’re all encompassing and literally like taking over and taking down the marriage?
Yeah, I totally agree with that Because I always think like sometimes. I know intimacy is a big issue in marriages, but it’s a very small part of marriage. But when it’s not happening it becomes the only thing people can think about. And I think let’s deal with that. Let’s like I don’t know. Why do you think people are so scared to deal with these things?
I don’t know, why do you think people are so scared to deal with these things? Well, intimacy in and of itself, especially if you’re referring to emotional, but physical and sexual intimacy is just a very charged topic. I mean, there’s so much baggage, just like money as well. Right, we have our stories, we have the things that we learned growing up, we have all of our ideas and beliefs surrounding it, and so you know, everybody’s ideas and preferences and opinions about this topic are very individualized, and there’s no way to work through it without really healthy, intentional communication. And so we have to learn not only about intimacy and how to improve it, but you also have to learn good, healthy communication skills to be able to address it with each other.
So what are some good communication skills you can help us out with?
Yeah Well, one of my favorite ones is just making requests, and I talk about this in the book. It’s very, it’s very simple. But people are not taught this and so, instead of stuffing down your feelings or just not sweating it or, you know, trying to be the bigger person, I think a lot of times, especially in sort of our religious beliefs, we think, oh well, we put our partner first and us second, and so I don’t want to make a big deal out of this, I don’t want to rock the boat, I want to be the bigger person and just kind of look past it. And so we don’t initially like we don’t bring it up until it becomes something. That’s just like wrecking us from the inside out, right. But making requests is actually super, super, super healthy and important, and it’s three steps. The first one is being willing to rock the boat, like being willing to ask for the thing, and that often takes a little bit of self-reflection, like what is it that’s bothering me? What would I like?
So most of us, when something isn’t going our way, we tend to just complain about it. We complain to our mom or our girlfriends or our bros or you know whoever is around, like, oh, you know I’m not getting the sex that I want, or my spouse isn’t helping around the house, or I, you know, have to do everything, or whatever it is. We tend to just complain and we think that we’re being proactive because we’re talking about it, but in a very indirect, wrong way, and the chances of us getting more of what we want by complaining about what we’re not getting is very low. So the first thing we have to do is figure out what the request is behind the complaint. So, if you know, my complaint is my partner never helps around the house. Well, I have to think like man. It would be really helpful if my spouse would help with the dishes twice a week, Like that’s a good request. Or I would love it if my spouse would initiate once a week, like on their own. That’s a very specific and helpful request.
So figure out what the request is first and be willing to make it. So the first thing you’re going to do is I call this contracting right. So instead of just ambushing your partner when they get home from a busy day of work or you know they’re in the middle of a project or they haven’t gotten enough sleep, you’re going to have much better results if you’re like hey, I have a request, I’ve been thinking about it for a couple of days, would now be a good time to chat. And if they’re like oh, you know, let me get something to eat and you know, sit down for a minute, like you’re going to have better results. If your partner’s like bought in and they’re like, oh, yes, let’s talk about it, right. So now you have their full attention and you’re willing to say the thing. Second, you want to make it.
We like to say we like to make it stupidly easy for them to be able to fulfill the request. Right? So if you go to your partner you’re like I’d like you to help more around the house. What does that mean to you? That’s so vague, it’s so hard to fulfill that Like. I’m sure your partner’s like sure, honey.
Yeah, what does that even mean Right? So if you can be specific and time bound and behavioral, then it makes it so easy for your partner to know exactly what it is that you want from them. So can you help me, on Tuesdays and Thursdays, clean the kitchen while I do whatever it is right, so that way your partner can go oh, tuesdays and Thursdays, do the dishes check. I can do that right. Or they can say you know what Tuesdays and Thursdays don’t work for me. Can we figure out something else right, but make it stupidly easy for them to know exactly what it is that you’re looking for from them.
I love that. Yeah, yeah.
And then step three is show gratitude and appreciation for whatever progress is made. So, let’s say, the next week your partner does the dishes on Tuesday and then on Thursday they forget. Well, instead of just bombarding them with you’re such an idiot, why didn’t you? You know, blah, blah, blah, blah. It’s like, hey, thank you so much for doing the dishes on Tuesday. That was so helpful. I was able to do this and this and this, and I really, really appreciate it. What can I do to make it easier for you to do the dishes on Tuesday and Thursday next week? Right, so we can always negotiate for more, but let’s start with being really grateful for what we did get any progress that was made. And that is your secret formula for getting so much more of what you want in your relationship than just complaining about what you’re not getting.
Yes, I love that. And what happens when they don’t want to do it?
Well, here’s the thing Most partners are really going to want to make you happy. Of course, if they can do it, they’re going to. Now, obviously, there’s all kinds of things that might come up. They might forget, they might, you know, not be able to, they might have an appointment, they, you know there’s all kinds of things that come up. So it’s important to really talk about it and, like you know, encourage your partner to be really honest about it, like, hey, if that’s not something you can do, like let me know, like we’ll figure it out. If I have to pay a teenager to come over on Tuesdays and Thursdays to do the dishes for me, you know we can, we can figure something out. But like work with me on it Right now. If they forget and they don’t do it, here’s what is like human nature. The tendency is to like blow it super out of proportion, like they didn’t do the dishes on Thursday and they’re so lazy they never do anything I ask them to do and the marriage is just boom.
They must not love me. Yes, they don’t love me.
Yeah, they’re so inconsiderate.
Yeah, so the important thing to remember about requests is to keep micro disappointments micro. If your partner didn’t do the dishes on Thursday, it just means that on one particular day they didn’t do one particular thing that you asked them to do, and so you can ask again and you can even use this as like such a magic phrase what can I do to make it easier for you to do what I’m asking you to do? So maybe that’s send me a text like remind me that Tuesdays and Thursdays are my days. You know, it could be as simple as that. Or it could be like hey, can you take the kids out to play or to a friend’s house, or something like that, because it’s really hard to do the dishes when they’re running around underfoot, right? So, talking about it, negotiating about keeping it micro, like it was just this one day they didn’t do one particular thing that you asked? Not, they never do anything around here.
Yeah, I love that and to keep it, I like make it more personal because I can. I totally see that in my own life as well as many people, that we take one little thing and then make it mean like this whole story about us, right, we bring the whole story about us and them.
Yeah, and it’s easy to do with our partner. But think about our kids, our coworkers, our friends. Like it’s really easy to universalize like one small error or like you know misstep or whatever into like something huge, and so it’s really important to always be checking our story. Like wait a second, my kid always forgets his homework. Is that true? They’re very responsible. It’s just in this one occasion they didn’t turn in their assignment on time, right? So it’s like always important to check those things. Like am I universalizing this or is this just like one time where they did this one thing so-and-so? Always does this for her. Your sister never forgets. Like, yes, so easy to do. It’s kind of like just what our brains do.
Yes, yeah, marriage is complicated, right, and so I love, though, that. How do you get people to start questioning, like, if you have this belief because people believe some of these myths are true, right, they think they’re fact how do you get people to decide like, okay, do I want to believe that anymore, or do I want to think that anymore? What are your thoughts on that?
yourself like is this serving my marriage? Because I think you know. This is an idea put forth by Emily Nagoski and she talks about how, as we’re growing up, our parents and caregivers and teachers and leaders they plant things in our garden, and when we’re young, we don’t really have any control over what’s being planted in our garden. But when we’re older, when we’re adults and we’re married in a loving relationship, it becomes our responsibility to tend to that garden. But when we’re older, when we’re adults and we’re married in a loving relationship, it becomes our responsibility to tend to that garden. And so we’ve got to go into the garden and look at things. If it’s a weed and it’s choking out good, then we’ve got to pull it out. Sometimes we have to weed the entire thing and we have to rototill it and start over and put our own seeds in there of like what we want to grow in our garden.
Well, I love the gardening metaphor, analogy, whatever, because I really think like we kind of sometimes have to like tear our garden out. We have to rebuild our marriages because, especially for those of us that have been married 20 plus years and we’ve have lots of weeds in our garden, it’s like almost better just to kind of start over. And I love Esther Perel Like she says like sometimes we’re married three or four times all to the same person.
And.
I like that thought because it’s true, Like sometimes the version of us obviously in our 20s and then we have babies and we change, and so I love that concept. I think it’s so helpful if people can envision it Somehow. We believe it’s like we’ve done something wrong.
Right, I mean no, that really does happen, because a lot of times in you know, especially when people you know, sometimes in a marriage one person will have a faith transition in after they’ve been married for a couple of decades, Right, and so it might be necessary to completely weed out the garden and start completely over, like rototill the whole thing, like everything that you thought was.
You know what your marriage was based on, changes. And so I mean it’s not just that. I mean maybe your parents get sick and you’re caring for, you know, aging parents, or you have a child with a disability, or there’s all kinds of things that can happen, transitions in our lives and in our marriage, when we have to really look at what’s growing in the garden and what should be there, what shouldn’t be there and, you know, does it need to be completely replanted? Because that happens all the time.
Yeah, I agree. Do you think, do people come to you when they’re like in crisis mode, or usually, or they’re like no, I just want to check up and work on my marriage.
No, sadly, not enough people do that. I mean most of the time, people who come to me are having a big crisis, like one partner’s moved out or you know, one partner’s been betrayed, or there is some huge life transition, like a faith transition or something. So most of the time, couples who come to me are needing immediate attention for something big that’s happened. But every once in a while right now, I’m seeing a sweet teenage boy who, well, he’s in his 20s. He’s not a teenager, but he’s young, but he’s taking responsibility. He’s like I really want to prepare myself to meet the right person and like, really, and I appreciate that so much. And once I have had a young couple who came to me and they said we just want to establish with you. Everything’s great now we’re newly married, we’re very happy, but we want to establish with you so that when things do come up, you already have a history with us and I thought that is brilliant.
And it’s great, don’t you wish we could normalize that Like normalize like couples, like we need to do check-ins right with people.
Right. Well, the reality is is the reason why you would see a coach or a therapist or like, if there’s been a lot of trauma or you know past relationship hurts and things like that, then that’s really important. But most of us it’s just great to look at what kind of our past tendencies and our conflict styles and attachment styles look like, because then we can recognize them and we have a lot of choice around it. The reality is is once you create a relationship, even before you’re married, you’re starting a dynamic, and so when you’re in relationship with somebody, it’s a dynamic, and when you’re in the dynamic you can’t see it very well. It’s like trying to read the label from the inside of the bottle. So you go to a third party who has a different perspective. Now I can tell you what the warnings are on the label. Right, I can show you what it is. You can’t see about yourself when you’re mid-conflict. So just learning those things so you’re prepared and you have more choice in the matter is so helpful.
Yeah, I agree, and a neutral party, because I think sometimes we go to our parents or our siblings or a friend.
They’re not neutral, they have opinions, right and so they’re not neutral and sometimes they don’t have the best interests of the relationship in mind, right, because they’re your friend or your sibling right, and so that’s exactly what you’re saying neutral, right. Like they’re more privy to one partner or the other.
Yeah, they already have established opinions and so that’s unhelpful. I always say, like you know, especially in betrayal, like, don’t go talking to your family about it, because, especially if you want to stay together, because they’re going to have all their own opinions and it’s going to be hard, it’s going to make your decisions harder. So, anyways, well, monica, thanks so much for coming on today. You know life is chaos for you right now. What’s going on? Just a few kids coming in and out with problems. It’s fine, that’s okay, that’s all right. I don’t have any kids needing me today, so that’s good. So how do people get ahold of you? I’m going to put all your information in my show notes, but if they work with you or find out about your book, how can they get ahold of you?
Yeah, well, you can find all of my information, my podcast Secrets of Happily Ever After, and how to work with me on my website, which is my name, monicatanercom. And then, if you want to get on the wait list for my book that comes out in August, you’re just going to go to wwwbadmarriageadvicecom.
Such a great title because lots of bad marriage advice out there. Well, thanks, monica, for taking time out of your schedule to come on my podcast. And if you liked this podcast, please share it with your friends and family and I will talk to you next week. If you want to learn how to live happily even after, sign up for my email at hello at life coach Jen, with one n dot com, follow me on Instagram and Facebook. At happily even after coach, let’s work together to create your happily even after.
