Hey friends, welcome to today’s podcast. Today I’m doing something a little different. I was recently on a good friend of mine and fellow life coach her podcast. It’s called Seasons of Joy podcast and you can find that right along where my podcast is as well and her name is Jill Pack and she is a life coach for women in the second half of their life. I met her about three years ago and we have just kind of followed each other and we both are huge Jodi Moore fans and so we found ourselves in some our faith-based training for life coaches as well as recently in California at a story learning how to tell stories better this conference a day conference we did and so she asked me to be on her podcast. So it’s a little bit longer than what I normally do, but we just have a conversation and I talk about my story a little bit and she has some great insights and actually I had a few aha moments during this podcast. So I hope you enjoy and I will talk to you next week.
This is Jill Pack with the Seasons of Joy podcast. This is episode number 153, entitled Happily Even After, with Jennifer Townsend, and 53 entitled Happily Even After with Jennifer Townsend. Are you a woman of faith who is struggling to navigate your current season of life? Do you feel like life is just happening to you instead of for you? My name is Jill Pack and I’m a certified faith-based life coach and a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I want you to know that, no matter your season or your circumstance, it is possible to create a more joyful life, and I would love to show you how. Are you ready? Let’s go.
Hello, my friends, welcome to this week’s episode. I’m so glad to have you and I’m looking forward to sharing this conversation that I had recently with fellow coach, colleague and friend, jennifer Townsend. Jennifer is a betrayal coach and she helps men and women heal and rebuild after betrayal, and whether this is your situation or not, I think there’s some really good tips and thoughts that might help you with something else you’re struggling with. So give it a listen and here we go. I’m so glad to have you, jen. Would you just take a minute and tell my audience a little bit about you.
I have four kids my mom, my oldest daughter, is married and she lives in Oklahoma, and then my other three children live with me. I am divorced. I was married for 26 years and then I’ve been divorced now for three years. So getting you know used to that, yeah, I’m a life coach, which really saved me and I’m sure we’ll talk about that and I love, I love coaching. I love helping people. I things I love. I love fashion. I like clothes. I bizarrely love social media and I know you’re so good at it. Making real. Um, I I love traveling. I’ve traveled all over the world with my family and I’ve done a few trips on my own too. I like love puzzles. Getting divorced, I watch lots of Netflix, which I call everything Netflix, but lots of you know HBO, like all the channels. I have every streaming station and I do puzzles at night, so I’m waiting for my kids, I’ll like watch a show and do a puzzle. Oh, I love that. Anyways, I prefer sunshine over winter. I’m really happy it’s spring.
Yes, it feels so good, doesn’t it yes?
Yes, I’m an only I only. I’m an only daughter. I have three brothers. I do have a brother that passed away about 11 years ago. Now, you know, my parents are getting older, so lots of life changes, yeah a lot of life changes.
Yeah, I would definitely. People aren’t gonna see you. But Jennifer’s beautiful and she, when she says she loves fashion, you can tell she does, because she’s always just all put together, it’s it’s. It’s so fun to see what she’s wearing.
Years ago I went to school, I got my degree at BYU they don’t even have this degree anymore but in fashion merchandising, yes, I was determined to move to New York and, you know, do something in the fashion world and instead I met my husband and got married. And before that I actually did, I served a mission in Hong Kong. So I, you know, I was a little, I was older compared to the average right girl getting married. I was 25 when I got married. So I feel like nowadays that’s kind of young, yeah.
I was going to say now they are getting married.
A lot of people are getting but back in the nineties, like if I was like an old maid by the time.
I was 35, it was wrong with you. Yeah, it was kind of that time when people are like, um, if you’re not married, you might as well serve a mission. Yes, I don’t know why, that was the mentality, but that was the mentality. That was the mentality.
Thank goodness that changed. But yes, so I did. I did a lot before I got married and I really thought you know, I for me, I was marrying the one right. Yeah, yeah, the guy that I was going to spend forever with.
Yeah, well, and that’s what I wanted to have you on today, cause I know you coach women that are going through maybe a divorce, but around the trail, this idea around betrayal. So I would love for you to tell listeners um, how did you find coaching and you know a little bit about who you work with.
Yeah, I. So in 2018, I was getting divorced and I had found out my husband was having another affair. That was not his first affair. He had had other affairs earlier in our marriage, but of course I was. I forgave him. I thought you know we could figure this out. So you know, kind of I for sure didn’t deal with it in a great way. They didn’t even know about betrayal, trauma back then and all the things. But I, in 2018, I was going to get divorced.
I had been a stay at home mom and I decided maybe I needed to get out of the house a little bit. So I got a job at a clothing store and a friend there who hired me my boss hired who hired me. She was like, do you listen to podcasts? And at this time I had not listened. I never listened to a podcast and I hadn’t listened to an audio book. I mean I just they weren’t as popular then. And so she told me about Jodi Moore’s better than happy and so I thought, all right, I’ll listen to it. And I listened to every single podcast, whatever. I don’t know how many she had done, probably like at least a hundred by at that time, and I went and listened to all of them and I was like I felt like a sponge that was just like, oh my gosh, I can think something different. Like I was so devastated and I thought my life was over. Um, you know, and I just like all everything I heard just was like truth bombs going on and I, um, during that time I actually my former spouse and I we reconciled, so we didn’t end up getting divorced, and I thought I felt like just like a new lease on life.
And I heard about coaching. So I joined her program, I hired myself a coach and for me, what I started working on bizarrely it had nothing to do with betrayal, but it was about my body image, because I had such a negative view of my body from my spouse having affairs, from his comments through the years, right, like I didn’t look a certain way, or, you know, having four babies takes a toll on your body. So I had such a negative self image about my body that I was like driving myself crazy and the thought that I could make the number on the scale neutral was like mind blowing. I’m like there’s no way. But once, like that’s really what I hired a coach to help me, like I didn’t know I was hiring them to help me with that. But that’s what I focused on, because I just hated my body so much and I thought, well, if I hate myself so much, how do I expect my husband to love me if I can’t even love me? And so anyways and of course I did believe I was I had to fix my marriage. I really believed it was about me. If I was different, if I was better in some way, then my husband wouldn’t be having an affair, and that’s sadly how I really believed that for a long time. So, anyway, so I found coaching and then, I think, just started working on myself, just slowly, really focused. I just started me getting healthy, wasn’t really focused on my marriage as much, started me getting healthy. I wasn’t really focused on my marriage as much.
And so in 20, I think in 2020, the pandemic my former spouse. He was working from home and I just thought I had never even listened to the life coach school podcast for Castillo, but I thought that’s where Jodi went. I’m like I could be a coach, I could help people, like if this helped me so much, I want to help people. So I did the life coach school and I graduated, I think, in like April 2021. And my I during that time, I thought we were working on my marriage, like we were doing I, we decided to start a podcast together, me and my former spouse with someone else. And when I graduated from the life coach school and I thought and I already knew when I went into this, I’m like no, I want to help other women who have experienced betrayal, I’m like I, I think I can do that, I want to do that. But I realized in well, in 2021, I was still healing from betrayal, so I kind of like was like, what am I doing? How can I do this? But I did. I started my podcast.
I was determined. I’m like I am going to this is going to work, no matter what. Like I was convinced I was going to make my marriage work. I did not want to get divorced. I loved my life. I had a pretty amazing life. I loved my kids. They were all happy, like right, they were perceived happy, everyone was just in a good place. Like I loved my neighborhood, I loved my house. I did not want to get a divorce. And so I was like, okay, maybe I can, you know, just continue thinking thoughts, good thoughts, right, thinking my way out of this and I.
It took me a year, another year of doing my own work, but realizing that wait a second, like I can’t think my way out of this and I also he’s not going to change. So I think coaching gave me the skills and the tools to realize this right. And then I’ve been trained in my nervous system and trauma and some other things that have really helped me with my own healing, also help my clients. But anyway, so it from 2022 to now, 2021 to 2022, really that year I think I knew in my heart my marriage was going to end, but I was. I was just still trying to heal, right.
And then, of course, um, you know, I was going to retreats. I was trying all the things, all the things, but ultimately I realized like no, this is he wants this and it was going to be okay. So we got divorced really quick, like in a month once we decided it takes 30 days in Utah, like every state’s different, but we went to mediation. He got divorced. Um, you know, told our kids was a very like anti climatic and in my mind like, oh, you know, he could probably still come over for dinner and like I think I just was still in the fog of not wanting to accept the reality, like my favorite quote I one of my favorite things I’ve learned from life coaching is like um, when you don’t accept reality, we only lose 100% of the time. Like it’s fine, and I’m not getting that quote exactly right, but we like. Learning to accept our reality is so important.
And you know, of course I get divorced. He’s you know I call her the straw that because he ended up marrying her right Like another. This is a whole other person right Than all the other ones.
But I just I thought you know what it I? I don’t need to be, I don’t, I don’t need that. My kids were older, right, I don’t need to have them over for dinner, like that was so hurtful for me, right, Like I just was, I created boundaries, I learned boundaries, I all those things that we teach our clients right and help them understand. Like we’re not going to change them, but how do we want to change and so anyway, so yeah, 2022, I got divorced. Eight weeks after that, my daughter got married, which was really hard. I think I always dreamt of my daughter getting married and I’m like, talk about the worst circumstance. You know, it just was really uncomfortable and hard and but we made it through and we’re really, I think, definitely more thriving now than ever before.
And what do you think? That is why. Why do you think you’re thriving? Yeah, for sure, all the tools.
Like, yeah, he realizing that it was never about me, his affair was never about me, understanding that my thoughts are important, right, understanding that I can think whatever I want, right? I don’t have to believe all the things he believed about me, like they were just his beliefs, like I don’t have to believe any of that. I reject most of them, right? I used to think I was bad at many. I’m like, actually I’m really good at many, right? So I’ve just each little thought that has come up, I’ve just really worked deciding do I want to believe that anymore? Do I want to do that? And just because someone told me I was a certain way, I don’t have to believe that.
Yeah, so, paying attention, how do I want to feel, right? What kind of wife or I’m not a wife what kind of mom do I want to be? Like I love, I love the world’s mom. Like I’ve embraced that, because I’m like hey, guys, sometimes I’m a great mom and sometimes I’m not, and that’s okay, yes, and it just has given me so much more freedom. I’m like why didn’t I know this, you know, a long time ago? I think it would have helped me, but I love, uh, you know, I like that. So just all these concepts that I’ve learned, I’ve been able to integrate in my life and just decide whether I want to think them anymore or not and just really practice Right, I think it takes practice. People want it to be a quick fix. Yeah, has to take lots of practice, yeah, repetition.
Yes, for sure yeah.
Yeah, I love that. It’s such a beautiful story, jennifer, because it helps you help your clients from a place of experience, right, like you’ve tried all these things that you’re showing them, that you’re teaching them and they’ve worked for you, and so I think that’s so beautiful, that you’ve done the work in your own life so that you can help other people. That’s just, it’s so beautiful. And one thing I wanted to add when you were saying something like what kind of wife do I want to be? And you said, well, I’m not actually a wife, well, but you could also say, like, what kind of ex-wife do I want to be? Or former spouse do I want to be, and you said, well, I’m not actually a wife, well, but you could also say, like, what kind of ex-wife do I want to be? Yeah, or former spouse do I want to be?
That is true, that’s a really important question to ask, right, yes, yeah, no, it is. All those questions are good, like what kind of ex-wife do I want to be? And, yeah, I’m very intentional about you know who, how am I going to show up? And for me, but not everyone, right, people have to co-parent, right, all the time, like I don’t really, I didn’t really have to do that because my kids were older. Yeah, but every now and again there’s an occasion, right, and I just always think, yeah, how am I going to show up here? Like I plan ahead of time. I do a lot of planning ahead of time, especially in situations I know that are going to be hard or uncomfortable. I don’t have many, but there’s people that have on the daily. I have a friend that probably three times a week she has to see her ex-husband. So I’m like, okay, you know, what are you going to think? How are you going to feel? Where are you going to sit?
Like you know, make a plan.
So I think, that’s been really valuable, just learning awareness, like I think I’ve lived a lot of my life, sadly, like numb and unaware. I was just kind of, I was very frozen. I was surviving my life and it makes sense because I had so much betrayal, trauma which I didn’t even understand that I had that and so I’m stressing about I went one time I was like I probably I need to go to a therapist. I went to a therapist therapist. I remember telling him I’m struggling holding socks and that’s the reason like I was going there, but it had nothing to do with the socks they had. I was just frozen, like. I just was like but that’s the only thing I could come up with why I thought I needed therapy, which it sounds ridiculous, but I understand it now that no, it’s because I was frozen, I was struggling doing anything, yeah, and so I think, um, being able to wreck, being aware, like choosing how I want to feel, and it’s okay to be angry, I think, especially religious women we think it’s wrong to be angry or
we have to forgive and forget or we have to forgive and let them in our life. Well, no, we can forgive someone and let them go. Yes, a hundred percent. Yeah, angry is good and a good emotion, like sometimes we have to be. Of course you want to be angry when someone does something like have an affair or a child. Sometimes you want to be angry, but then under that anger is the sadness. I think a lot of times people get stuck as the victim in their life, and I, for sure, was stuck in my. I was the victim. I was in this victim mode but once I became like, oh no, I can be more empowered, I can choose this on purpose, like that was so much more empowering and it really like catapulted me to a different level that I think that used to bother me or they don’t even affect me anymore.
Right, yeah, I love that. I think you’re right. I think as women religious women there is, I mean we’re taught in the scriptures to love one another, right and and um. But I think that oftentimes that emotion is meant to teach us something. It’s telling us something needs to change, whether it’s us or the situation or whatever it is. It’s just saying pay attention to this thing.
So I love that. And anger. I think people are like well, that means you’re yelling. You don’t have to yell to feel angry, you just have to get the emotion out of your body. Yeah, you know, there’s lots of healthy ways Like of course you don’t want to yell or hurt someone to get your anger out. It’s not a react, because that’s reacting to your emotions. So, yeah, I mean that’s another huge one, like actually just feeling my emotions. I decided I’m an avoider. For sure I avoid things and I resist them.
Maybe if I don’t pay attention, maybe if I don’t cry, then I won’t really be that upset. But it’s like eventually it just comes out.
Yeah, sooner or later, right, sooner or later. And I’ve found in my own work like just the letting the emotions move through me is just, it’s the coolest thing, because then you realize they can’t hurt you and you aren’t it frees you up to experience other things, other emotions. But if you’re just resisting the anger, resisting the sadness, it’s hard to let room make room for anything else.
Yes, yeah, and you can’t feel sad. If you don’t feel, if you choose not to feel sad, you can’t feel happy.
Yeah.
Well, numb, yeah, that’s. I know that’s how I felt a lot of my life and I’m so sad, but um, I mean, I didn’t even know that that’s right now, cause I’m like oh, this is this feels I’m just much more present and more like very?
aware of how I feel, yeah, but I also think like there’s value in that experience. Not that you love it and want to repeat it, but how you’ve grown and your ability to feel at peace and content is amplified, yes, because of what you experienced.
Yes, In the other way, yeah, and you know we’re put on the earth to have experiences Like no one is guaranteed a free ticket and easy Like we’re all having hard. This is just my heart right.
Some people have health issues. We all have hard, yeah, sometimes we think, oh, that was really hard, I probably not gonna have anything else hard. No, it’s always hard. But the key is, can you move through it instead of get stuck in it? I think yeah, yeah, and we’re like be negative or like why me, what’s? You know, what did I do to deserve this?
And like no, and life is unfair. Like I think we get really stuck. I know when you know we get stuck on. Well, this isn’t fair, well, it’s not that this is like the wrong thing to say right, like this is just, this is just the way of it. This is part of God’s plan, is we are all having trials. That’s how we grow. If our life was easy which is the Satan’s plan, right, no one would have free agency and we would all just do the right, make the right choices. We wouldn’t learn anything.
No, and I don’t think we would know what happiness was.
No, we wouldn’t.
We wouldn’t know what happiness or joy or peace or comfort like we would. We just would almost be numb, because we wouldn’t have the contrast to experience, to regulate our emotions and feel them and process them.
We’re not reacting to them, we’re not resisting them or avoiding them. We our trials, we can move through them much better and they don’t, you know. I mean, I don’t know, every trial is different. I’ve had lots. I’ve had lots of things happen to me and I always think like, oh, maybe, maybe that’s why you, maybe that’s why I went to Hong Kong and learned Cantonese, which is the one the hardest languages in the world to learn. I’m like I just learned that I couldn’t pass French, but you did. I learned Cantonese.
I love that, I love that.
So, as you work like, so would you say your primary client, your typical client, is someone that is going through some kind of betrayal, set to work with them, yes, and I originally like I was like I’ll probably just work with women, but I actually work with a lot of men too and for me that feels fine, like some women don’t like to work with men, but I love working with men just as much as women, because women unfortunately have affairs as well. So my ideal client it really a client. Most of them are either going through it you know right now they’ve been through it but they never healed Right. So they like they’re realizing they’re either they never healed right, so they like they’re realizing they’re either divorced or still married, and they still. It’s been three, four or five years and they still. Because what people do, um, either, especially when they stay married, they just pretend they forgive and just sweep it under the rug and decide, um it, you know I, I’m just going to forgive him and it will go away eventually, and it just doesn’t.
Yeah.
Yeah and so, um, most of my clients, some of them, are divorced, so I don’t really coach on divorce right Like I. I know a lot about divorce cause I am divorced, but I mostly want to help people heal from betrayal, whether it was it’s going on right now or it was in your past. Because I think healing and when I say heal I think we live we’re healing all the time. We have little hurts, you know all the time from people and you know all things we have to heal for, heal from and so, but to be able to manage, so you’re not constantly, you know, feeling like you’re drowning, right, which people in betrayal feel like they’re drowning? And I, most of my clients. It’s either emotional or physical affair. Pornography always plays into it, but there’s a lot. There’s plenty of other people that are like pornography experts, so I don’t really focus on pornography. Sometimes they’re all.
They’re all included all interrelated right yeah, a lot of people that are dealing just with pornography in their marriage and their people, you know. So for me it’s, you know, the actual, the emotional affair and or physical affair.
Yeah, so when you’re working with your clients, men or women, what would you say is the biggest hurdle for them in this journey of healing? Like what? What blocks them from?
Yeah, well, I mean, there’s a lot of things, I think self-esteem is, your confidence gets like taken out. You find out your spouse is connecting with another person. It’s really hard, like some people can be like, oh, that’s, that’s on them, that’s not on me, but there’s always a part of you that you’re not enough. What’s wrong with me? How could this happen, right? Why didn’t? I know, you know, especially people that find out like for years their spouse has been cheating on them and then it gets discovered, right. So there’s so many layers of betrayal and it’s not. Even that is devastating, but it’s the lying and the gaslighting and the hiding of it that is even more devastating.
Yeah, so I think trusting ourselves, like how, if I didn’t notice this was happening, how I? What’s wrong with me? Like, is my intuition off? But chances are the thing is we’re, we’re wired to trust our spouse, right, or they didn’t give us any reason until they, they’re not trustworthy anymore, right, right. So I think those are for sure your confidence. Trust boundaries I mean most people don’t even discuss boundaries in their marriage A lot of times, don’t even know how to make. I didn’t even know how to make a boundary. But once I learned, my marriage ended quickly because I was like okay, I’m not, I don’t want a third person in my marriage. So it was a lot. It was easy for me? Not, it was was not easy, but I could clearly see it once.
I was like yeah, it opened up a better view of what was happening.
I was like, okay, yeah, and so yeah. So I think those are the main ones. I mean there’s, there’s just a lot betrayal, is. I mean, most of us don’t know how to feel our emotions and we’re so angry and then we get mad at ourselves, we judge ourselves for being angry and so then we step that on, so we have the and then the shame. It’s like I always just envision it’s like a black cloak around you that just holds us down with shame, because many and this is what I did my husband feels bad, bad. You know, I’m so sorry I did this. Whatever, he has shame and I’m just like well, let me carry your shame.
Yeah.
I’m going to carry your shame, so you don’t have to feel shame. And then I feel shame, and so I’m carrying the weight of his choices and how I feel, and so that happens a lot, right.
Yeah, so interesting, because I think that, um, yeah, we, we love this person, we we’ve built a life with this person and for that reality to shift right, it that’s a, that’s a big blow. And then to not I think it just to me it seems like a natural response in people that I’ve talked with is that you blame yourself in some way. And you said something early like what was it? Something about the way he viewed you? You just knew, like, if you change somehow, if you were better somehow, if you were different somehow, that would fix everything. And I find that fascinating, especially as women, and you would know if men do this too. But that that’s where we go. Yeah, it’s so fascinating?
Yeah, it is. I for sure think it’s a more woman issue. Men men usually react differently but they, yeah it is. I think they have a different experience. But men people think like, oh, men just leave. No, men still want to stay married. A lot of times I would say, most people come to me they want to save their marriage and I totally believe that is possible If their spouse is taking full accountability, full ownership. They’re doing their work and I also a thing that I think I mean.
People immediately think we need marriage counseling, we’ve got to go to a marriage therapist, save our marriage. I disagree. I’ve learned this because that’s exactly what I did. Oh, you know, I first did go do my own, got a therapist or whatever. But I think healing needs to be separate and tell you are healed enough, because right when you go to marriage counseling, you can’t hear, you’re still so hurt. It’s hard to hear what the other person is trying to say to you yeah, so you’re I call it like the CEO. Part of your brain just turns off and you can’t even hear it, and so so you have to be healing Like you have to be doing your work, figuring out what’s going on, how you’re feeling before you can even come together, and I think people get stuck in well, our marriage used to be this way.
It’s like no, you have to. That is over. Your old marriage is over, yeah, and I like your seasons right. You’re in a different season now. This is the season of we’re rebuilding our marriage, yeah, and so for sure, that can happen, and I think it can even happen with just one of you starting to heal, right, even if your spouse had the affair. If you, you start healing.
A lot of times people are like, well, I’m paying attention, if my spouse is going to go to therapy, then I’ll go to therapy. It’s just the wrong way to look at it. I think it’s like no, you need help. And how can you start healing? Because as you start healing, you can see better, you can, you’ll be able to, um know, like, okay, make better decisions. Because when you initially discover people either go to fight, flight or freeze like their trauma, like immediately, like people either want to run away, uh, fight, meaning fight for their marriage or they completely become frozen and shut down and crawl in their bed, and so you have to be able to get you know a little bit more regulated, get your mind working right or you can decide.
But I do believe marriages can um, survive and work together, and especially if it’s not a pattern, for for sure it was a pattern in my marriage. I never saw the pattern until after I got divorced, but I can see the pattern now. So I? But there are people, people make mistakes, people have weak moments, right, we’re human. So I think for sure you can work and have a better marriage than you did before because you’re connecting and communicating. But also, especially if you’re like, have the thought, which I did, divorce is bad, divorce is wrong. I can’t get divorced. I want my forever family to. I think, consider what if? What if you could think something different, right? What if divorce is the best thing for you and your kids and your family, right? Yeah, for me. I really leaned into that. I finally was able to get there. It took me 26 years to get there, but I finally was like no, this kid, this divorce isn’t the worst thing to ever happen to me.
The betrayals devastating, yeah so and staying stuck in that pattern right in that cycle yeah, and thinking it was my fault and trying to fix myself and, um, hating myself and you know, and of course that showed up with how a mom, what kind of mom, I was, which is devastating to me right. So now I’ve had to do lots of repair with my kids, but I’m glad I can do that right. I can say sorry and I can be like you know what? I really sucked, I really struggled, I was hard. Yeah.
And it’s okay, right. So that’s what I think is is is a beautiful piece. No matter what we’re, what kind of relationship we’re working on is. Is that repair the ability to to just apologize, take accountability and own our part and then move forward and have real honest conversations? I think that’s something I’ve learned over the last little while is so many of us are afraid of the hard conversation. Yes, Right, it feels so scary. Yes, right, it feels so scary. But what would life be if we could, if we could hold space for the uncomfortable thing that it feels, right, that discomfort, but what could we gain on?
the other side of that conversation.
Yeah, I love Jodi’s like the, about coaching right, saying the whole truth. What’s the whole truth is that I’m devastated and I love you, but I don’t want to be married to you anymore because this goes against all my values, all my beliefs, all my like. Two things can be true, you know, yeah, I love my husband and I could also want to get divorced, yeah, right, and so I love with my kids. I mean that that’s been for me.
My greatest blessing is to recognize, because I used to get so defensive, right, I was always defensive, and because I just I was like I got to prove that he’s wrong about me, right, but he had a whole different vision of me. And I was wrong about him because I could only see his good qualities, I was only looking at his good stuff. He was only looking at my negative, and I think that happens a lot in marriages, especially when there’s conflict. And so I loved the idea of, okay, what part of what they’re saying is true, even if it’s just 5%. And then, because a lot of times there is truth, right, like you know you, I can’t think of an example, but anyways, I just so not to get so defensive, and now I don’t get defensive very often, and when I do, I’m like, oh, what’s going on for me, like I will investigate, right, like what, what’s?
Why was I defensive about that? To be defensive about whatever it was. So, yeah, and teaching my kids, like you know, I’m a human, we’re human, you’re a human and really connecting. I think we’ve had some great conversations because you, they’ve had to learn a lot of rotten things, hard things, about their parents and about you know, and I take ownership because I was always trying to protect, I thought I was protecting them and our family by you know, not, you know, hiding what was really going on. Right, it’s really just putting on this mask, but the reality, once the reality came out and the truth, then it’s like okay, we can’t hide from this anymore.
Which sets us free, right, like, ultimately, even though it’s painful, it’s what sets us free being able to just be honest, and I love what you said. Like you were saying he only saw the negative in you and you were being able to just be honest, and I love what you said. Like you were saying he only saw the negative in you and you were only able to see the positive in him. Both of you weren’t looking at the humanity of the other person, isn’t that like both of you were doing the same thing, but yet it looked different. Yeah, so interesting.
If someone’s listening and they’re, they’re going through this, they’re they’re either in the thick of it, um, and kind of in that fight, fight or freeze mode, or it’s been a little bit and they still are struggling. What, what advice would you offer them? I’m going to put your, your, um, all your contact information in the show notes so people can reach out to you. I just think what you do is so important because there there are people out there suffering that, that have gone through similar things, that just need someone that can help them work through this in in a healing way. But what would you say to that, that woman or man that’s listening and they’re in that place where you found yourself Like what? What can they take away from this conversation?
Um, I mean, of course I have lots of thoughts, but first of all, like just to have lots of love and compassion for where you’re at, like don’t judge yourself. I think we, we tend to go to judgment, like I’m doing it wrong. There’s not a right or wrong way to do this. We, it’s our first right. Like, no one gives you a manual, you know, we don’t know how to. How do you go through betrayal in a great way? Um, but find someone. You need at least um, one confidant, because what happens I found it’s what I did, right Is I just held it in. I had so much shame, and shame wants us to hide, right, so I didn’t tell, I didn’t talk about it, I didn’t tell people. Now, you don’t want to tell the world, right? Or even, I would suggest not a family member, because then if you do end up staying married, it just you then have to deal with lots of other issues, right? So a trusted friend, and I would suggest I know in our church a lot of people go to their bishop or their ecclesiastical leader. They’re just not equipped to deal with betrayal like it just it’s not their job. They’re just not equipped to deal with betrayal Like it. Just it’s not their job. They’re spiritual leaders, not your therapist, and so using them for a therapist, I just think is is not a great way to go. And so finding a coach, therapist, all of it, whatever you can, so you can work through these issues, I think is so important Making sure you’re taking care of yourself, right You’re.
If you can only get up, take a shower and get dressed for the day, that’s enough. Just be really kind. You don’t have to. I think I know in my past I would cut things out of my life, like sometimes it’s just too much. Sometimes people either go into overdrive and get super, stay, super, super busy so they don’t have to feel anything, or they shut down. So try to at least continue moving through.
And you don’t have to decide today if you’re staying married or getting divorced, like you can. There’s no rush, unless, of course, you get divorce paper right, like it just depends. But if there’s not a pressing, there’s not a timetable, you could. You could wait a year or you don’t. I just wouldn’t put a time on making a decision. You’ve got to get a little healthier to make a decision. And um, yeah, I think um just lots of love and compassion, lots of um, knowing that there is help out there, and finding someone that fits with you, that you feel comfortable with Um and you, you know, feel like, okay, this could be helpful. Right, I think, finding the right person and if you go to a therapist or a coach and you don’t like them after a few times, you can switch like you’re allowed to. You don’t have to stay with someone, right.
I love that. I love that, like you can take ownership of of the healing process. Right, I love that. I love that, like you can take ownership of of the healing process.
Right, yeah, and I would say don’t wait for your husband. If your husband’s the one that had the affair, don’t decide. I’m going to wait for him to take the lead. No, you are allowed to go get help. You’re allowed to spend money on yourself for healing. You’re allowed to. You don’t have to wait for them, don’t? I think so many people look outward instead of inward and just pay attention what do you need? And a lot of us women, we don’t know what we need and so figuring out okay, just can you name something. That’s why having someone help you, having a coach, help you, you can help identify what my needs are. I met with one of my clients today and we went through her whole her 10 needs. I have a needs list in one of my courses and you know I was just helping her identify each thing. What does she need in that and how can she meet it? So often we expect everyone else to meet our needs. It’s like, no, it’s our job to meet our needs yeah, that’s so good.
I think that people are going to find this really beneficial and I think, even if you aren’t suffering but betrayal, those things are still very worthwhile. Think about right, like especially midlife women.
Yeah, like raising our kids We’ve. We were just focused on our kids needs and not even ours, right yeah?
So taking that time to to heal in other ways right From other things and just I don’t know the more I’ve, you know we use. It’s so easy to think that if other people change we’ll be happy. But when we take ownership and start making like, just getting self-reflective and and deciding what kind of person do I want to be, what, what do I want to create in my life, and just those simple things change our relationships without ever having to change the other person.
Yeah, I always say, once you start doing a different dance, the other person’s going to have to start learning your new dance steps or they’re going to be like I don’t want to learn this dance. You know you figure out like, and a lot of times people do come with you. You just have to be the leader you have to be, and I think people are like well, I wasn’t the one who did the betrayal, right, that’s okay, you still are the one that is affected by it, you still have that pain, and no marriage is perfect, right.
We all have different things that we do in a marriage that we probably could work on.
Yeah Well, we’ve created that pattern of dance, right, and so what pattern have we contributed to the marriage and can? Is that worth looking at and deciding? Is this a pattern that I want to keep, that I’m doing, and, and what would life be like if I could let that go?
Yeah.
That affect our relationship.
So and feeling helps you not even when you’re you end up getting divorced. I always think, like I’m divorced, maybe I’ll get remarried, I don’t know, but anything I’m learning now will for sure help me oh, yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
It helps us in every relationship yeah, with right.
I mean yeah, yeah, so good family yeah.
So good. Well, this has been so fun. Jennifer, thank you for listening and talking about this, so just tell people where they can find you. I will put the links in the show notes, but just let them know where they can find you.
Yeah, I have. So I have a weekly podcast as well. I’m called happily even after, with life coach Jen, and so every Monday I drop an episode and talk about different things. And then I have a website, lifecoachjencom, and I have I’m on Instagram, mostly at happily even after coach, and so that’s where you can find me. And I have I’m going to put I’m going to send it to Jill a link. You can take a quiz and it’s called how healed are you, and it will you enter in your answers and it will spit out how healed you are, and so it’s a, you know, just a fun tool to if you’re wondering, like curious, like wow, I thought I was healed and actually I have some work to do.
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. Oh yeah, thank you. Thank you for tuning in to the seasons of joy podcast. I hope you enjoyed today’s episode and if you like what you heard, don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review and share with your friends and family. If you want to learn more about me’t forget to subscribe, leave a review and share with your friends and family. If you want to learn more about me or how to work with me, just visit my website, wwwseasons-coachingcom, and have a joyful week.
